Title: Here and Now for Thursday, July 24, 2008

" I'm Anthony brooks in for Robin Young it's here now democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama addressed an enormous crowd in Berlin. This is his first stop in Europe after visits this week Afghanistan Iraq Jordan and Israel. Obama spoke to a crowd of berliners and American expatriates many of them waving American flags from a park not far from where the Berlin wall once divided the city. In his speech he wrote called the post war period of German American reconciliation. And the rebuilding of Europe. And he urged Americans and Europeans to work together again to defeat terror and to counter the religious extremism that support."

" Yes there have been differences between America and Europe. No doubt there will be differences in the future. But the burdens of global citizenship. Continued to bind us together. A change of leadership in Washington. Will not lift this burden. In this new century Americans and Europeans alike will be required to do more the last. Partnership and cooperation among nations is not a choice. Is the only way. But one way to protect our common."

" And moment. Okay. Good."

" That is why the greatest danger at all. There's two allowed the walls that divide us from one another. The walls between all of our lives on either side of the Atlantic cannot stand. The walls between the countries with the most and those with the least cannot stand. The walls between races and tribes natives and immigrants Christians and Moslems."

" Okay. Okay."

" What's hyped even compared to appearances in Berlin by American presidents Kennedy and Reagan. Never mind that Obama is still only a candidate for president so what is it about Germany and US presidents or in this case US presidential candidates. Earlier today I spoke with multiple timing of the Berlin newspaper -- target Spiegel. Why so much excitement. About Obama in Germany."

" First -- all. The obvious few young good looking smart charming charismatic. And how many German politicians to you know who have these critical to meet -- criteria. The German petitions from lack of small this just liking that so that isn't he -- Bullied. Pro charismatic politician but that just -- the department German. All leather thank you very proud that -- Obama. Which is in Berlin. Capital Germany was only made his speech in -- So they feel. Okay eight years that the Bush Administration. Let us decide because we've not participating in the Iraq War and things like that finally. There is somebody who don't -- up as the but -- most important continental European country."

" Tell us multi about the venue I understand he's speaking at the victory column in Berlin but at first his campaign wanted him to speak at the Brandenburg gate which of course. And very symbolic Cold War site where presidents Kennedy and Reagan made famous speeches. And here in the US some critics have suggested that this was somewhat presumptuous. Of a candidate for president to ask to speak there. And I gather chancellor Merkel oppose the site as well."

" Yes had about -- pulled aside as well. And I mean the of the impressionists like now in Germany. Some people might have been asleep a couple of states just woke up because many Germans thing that give the president comes to bird. And it seems that ungrammatical. Realize. That the very few politicians that he's not even the candidate -- can -- and it candidate -- from the Democratic Party. You know so many people -- If barrack Obama comes he functional will be the next president so given the -- and she was small that's the only one the chance that -- in the mountains."

" Now we have mentioned that Obama met with the chancellor earlier today. You're chancellor is known as being something of an ally with President Bush any idea what they discussed how that meeting went what the chemistry was like between them."

" I'm pretty sure the chemistry is good because I can't think about the situation that's not. The build up the good chemistry but I'm on the -- you just -- with people jumped themselves the embargo Obama. Something like gates -- partner. Who who promote world peace and understanding in the role that fight global warming and things like this. So out state he met with off farm as a suspect in mind. He actually set. Oh we got the same mind we -- corporation instead of confrontation."

" Now he's coming to Europe after touring the Middle East he was in Iraq Afghanistan Jordan Israel. One of the policy changes that he's been talking about is moving more troops US and allied to Afghanistan from Iraq do you do you expect him to take up that idea in his speech today and and how that sit with with Germans."

" Definitely people customs to contribute more and more troops to their -- Our battle that this very unpopular in -- most tournaments. According to polls prefer to pull out all the troops of Afghanistan on. And very very few politicians. Would be willing to send them waltrip."

" You always been talking about Obama of course and almost has rock star quality that he seems to possess over there what about Senator John McCain to Germans know him are there are you know is there widespread interest in this contest."

" Not at all I mean the political -- militant Vogel because she's a frequent traveler to Germany. He participated number of conference at security conferences in Munich. So I think -- John McCain -- well. But the the Germans themselves to society. Has I would say more that's negative image of John McCain -- him like the he would he would pursue a multiple like policy which was very bulk."

" It finally can give me a sense of how your paper. It is following this election how much will you be covering -- and what the big issues that your interest."

" Tomorrow -- for sure is the front page the second cut page of the whole local that this and four would be the Obama visited Berlin. But in general -- pulling a very very closely -- quite exciting I mean the to do well between dark Obama Senator Hillary Clinton. -- exciting as well because -- poems were journal February but -- looks like the natural born whether. There's two it was got all the exciting and that is part of the all of the -- Barack Obama has because who is he that he coming from nowhere. The beating Hillary Clinton so -- a quite curious to see him to listen to him and -- him speak."

" That's multi Manning of the newspaper their target Spiegel talking to us from Berlin. We turn out -- John Harwood political writer for the New York Times and chief Washington correspondent for CNBC. And John -- wrote earlier this week that it might not really matter what Obama says in Germany the real front in this election is in places like Michigan and Ohio. Where John McCain is campaigning today. Well I mean Americans all of a sudden are very shaken up about their economic futures. So. When this campaign started in late 2006 early 2007. The violence in Iraq had reached such a crescendo that people assume that Iraq was going to be the dominant issue. In 8 is it was in the 6 election when Democrats won back power but since then. The housing crisis to financial market crisis have created so much more fear than existed before. By Americans have seen big institutions on Wall Street seemed to teeter on the verge of falling over we now have congress moving on a big housing bill to try to keep some people in their homes and prop up. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac these big giant mortgage companies. So that palpable fear by Americans has really displaced in all the polls to concern about Iraq so yes Barack Obama's getting tremendous publicity in headlines this week. But it just one week in the campaign John McCain still in the game. And ultimately. The swing voters in battleground states are likely to make up their minds on who they trust board. To do something turn -- the -- want to talk about that issue of trust but but but first before we leave from this phenomenon of Obama and Berlin. Could this foreign trip even backfire because of Dennis that is. You know especially swing voters concerned about the economy seeing these images of adoring throngs 3000 miles away could that somehow even hurt him. I doubt it I I wouldn't think that that that would really come back to bite him Barack Obama's got multiple goals in the campaign one of them. Is to try to achieve. Minimum credibility as a potential leader of the United States commander in chief that he is burdened. And the strip can help in advance that. But he's going to come back this is just one week in campaign he's going to come back and focus on the economy is well. So I think he gets that two it's just that unlike John McCain. Who people already presumed to be an acceptable commander in chief Barack Obama has to establish that -- you also wrote him this week that you -- you pointed to polls that suggest that Senator Obama hasn't yet cemented advantages either in convincing voters that he has the experience or that he has the right policy prescriptions for what -- the country the issues that you were just talking about before. Well it's interesting. All of the circumstantial factors would seem to favor Barack Obama. That is to say economic slowdown and anxiety on the watch of Republican president would naturally. Make that argument falls toward the Democrat running to succeed him. However. Barack Obama is new to the stage. A lot of people when he talked to his own campaign strategists privately will say. We haven't yet made plain enough to people exactly how we would change the conduct the economic policies in the United States. He does have a plan to raise taxes on people at the high -- cut them for people at the low -- invest more in alternative energy. Have a more aggressive government role. What he's got to make sure people understand what that means what it would mean to them. And he also has to make them feel safe about him as a potential leader of the country. Part that's national security but it's also part of the economy John McCain is the familiar figure. And I talked to a pollster in Michigan who said. John McCain has to trust right now because people even if they're unhappy with George Bush. John McCain's -- known quantity Barack Obama still unknown you know that's an interesting point I was looking at poll today in The Wall Street Journal a Wall Street Journal NBC poll out today which shows. Obama with a story a leading McCain nationally. By a few percentage points but that more voters identify with McCain's background and values then Obama's that seems like a contradiction anyway what do you make of I think it's partly the fact the there racial factor we we have not. Scene with a 200 years of white guy candidates for president. And we've had exactly one African American nominee for major party and it's a 46 year old guy has only been in Washington for four years so. He's got to make people more comfortable with him culturally. And as a matter of policy and that's that that's one of the challenges facing him but. Where we -- from the the kind of publicity he's getting this week in the the breaks that he he's gotten in foreign policy was about the government embracing is -- prescription for Iraq. That's so many things are going in his favor right now John McCain's trying to -- pretty strong -- so how does John McCain emerged from the from this week you you make the point that this is just one week in the campaign but you know gimme gimme your sense about how John McCain emerges from this week with. These huge pictures sort of splashed across newspapers and TV screens of Obama on his sort of foreign travels. Well a couple things he's hoping for first of all. He's tried to breakthrough somewhat by attacking Obama by by sort of putting out singers before and after Obama speaks overseas. There was this diversion put out that you saw a couple of days ago Bob Novak the columnist put something on the website -- Well maybe John McCain will announce his vice president this week. That created -- of attention. He's also trying to get local coverage in places like Ohio and Pennsylvania. To convince people I want to do something especially on energy and gas prices Barack Obama is against the steps like oil drilling -- I'm prepared to take this is what John Harwood thanks so much for helping us out today is that the doctor. But what if that's John Harwood political writer for the New York Times and CNBC chief Washington correspondent."

" For many Americans the war in Iraq is a distant phenomenon largely out of sight and out of mind but for Brian and on the heart of Bedford Massachusetts the war hits home every day. Their son army private first class John Hart was killed in action in 2003. And the hearts have turned their loss into a mission. They are outspoken advocates for better body armor and more medical supplies for the soldiers and Marines deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Here -- Monica Brady -- off reports."

" The hearts home in Bedford has an American flag hanging outside with the gold star banner it signifies their son died in service to his country. In their living room all my heart has devoted that they window to him army private first class John Hart. Here's his knuckles that's the bronze star for bravery in assists this purple heart. Brian Hart says twenty year old John was killed in Iraq while on patrol in an -- armored humvee in October 2003. They were trying to find the insurgents hadn't been firing rockets and a base. In the insurgents found them. Anyone who's lost a loved one will say it forever changes their lives but in the case of the hearts everything about their mission and purpose has changed. It's started a week before their son was killed. John called home from Iraq and asked his father for help to get more body armor and armor for the humvees he was driving and his mother alma remembers the -- well."

" As soon as Bryan hung up he tell me what Johnson -- He's pacing back and forth across the living room on who should we contact what can we do. That won't have any feedback on John how to do this -- in trouble. A week later John was dead and it was like okay well we can do anything we need to do now. I'm. They can't hurt us any more than this."

" Around this time then Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told a group of soldiers who were complaining they had insufficient protection. That the army was producing extra armor for humvees as fast as possible. Brian Hart didn't accept that explanation he researched the vehicles production called the plant and spoke with workers who said they were sitting idle."

" Going to find out the plan did not receive the purchase orders. And that was when I made -- determination with -- and I would resign from my job. And become an advocate for equipment for soldiers for what we thought would be a few months I mean we thought it was a miscommunication and misunderstanding in new courses. Turned out it wasn't."

" Hart didn't give up after a few months he spent almost five years calling for better equipment for US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Part is worked with powerful allies including Senator Ted Kennedy. And his son's funeral he asked the senator why a third of the troops didn't have body armor and why they were only 400 in forty armored humvees in Iraq. Kennedy held a congressional hearing. Six months later all troops had body armor and did about two years there were almost 20000 armored humvees in Iraq and the heart Manley found a new calling."

" It was sort of baffling I mean we've built a pharmacy automation equipment we have. No experience in these matters. But John as a twenty year old believe that you can make a difference. As a person and he and the other soldiers intimacy with -- that. You know we believe that ordinary people can make a difference. And that we have an obligation. To the country. And in particular to the soldiers who since the war."

" More than 4100 US soldiers have been killed in this war but only a handful of their relatives have taken on advocate seemed like the hearts. Roger Charles a retired marine colonel now with the advocacy group soldiers for the truce worked with the hearts and increasing the production of armored --"

" Brian now what were really the catalyst and by getting connected with Senator Kennedy. And by his making mechanic commitment he made were able I think to make a real difference in and peoples -- were saying."

" works on issues by thoroughly researching them and posting what he finds on his blog. Then active duty soldiers and National Guard families call him and he encourages them to contact congress. The hearts have influenced in some small part billions of dollars -- defense spending. But they have never received money for their work and haven't set up a nonprofit to raise funds. They've been living off their savings and are propelled by the calls and notes of thanks that come from soldiers and their families. Almost picks up the photo in their living room of the soldier in Iraq kneeling in front of a blown up humvee holding a hand written sign here's what it says."

" Thanks to Brian alma Hart and Senator Kennedy and everyone who cares. For our our well being and makes an effort you have saved the lives."

" After bringing the public's attention to an armored humvees Hart worked on getting armor for trucks driven by National Guard soldiers. Many learn the army lacked infield tourniquet. Hart says the army's own studies showed that 15% of casualties could have been saved by issuing single handed tourniquet and blood clotting agents. Following his advocacy the army started issuing them to every soldier in 2006. Now Brian heart is focusing on getting congress to investigate why the Marines are canceling orders or mine resistant ambush protected vehicles -- and wraps. They're armored fighting vehicles designed to resist IED's and ambushes. Defense Secretary Robert Gates credits them with saving lives and is made in the top priority. The army has ordered 12000 but Hart says the Marines scaled back their order by 9%. Which Hart says is indicative of the backward thinking in the military."

" Believe it or not the Marines have canceled their orders for him -- Claim they're too heavy for an amphibious assault operation. As if we were going to somehow invade he would GM again. I mean the reality of the war is that Marines and soldiers need him perhaps to survive."

" The Marines say they reduce their order because of the improving security situation in Iraq. Recently Brian heart the advocates got his first defense contract. He and his brother started a company in 2005. Building robots to dismantle car bombs and IED's. In June they received 800000 dollars from the Pentagon. But Hart says his commercial venture won't keep him quiet on troops' safety issues."

" There's a point where you realize that you have nothing to lose and then you can't live in. -- if you want to live in freedom and having the courage to act is probably. The one thing the dead can't do and it is our obligation. To the soldiers we -- into war. To advocate. For them as a citizen. This country."

" And that's Brian Hardin Bedford Massachusetts ending that report by Monica Brady -- You're listening to here and now."

" It's here now. But consensus on global. Is that one and is there -- The implications of everything that you -- there it is okay we're gonna spend a few minutes now talking about that's right global warming but this won't be your usual discussion about what many call the most pressing problem facing humanity."

" We feel very very passionate about global warming and we're very very upset about it yeah we just don't know why we're so what what. How can you be upset not know why. You know not know why many times you know most mornings nonsense I don't know why through."

" That's a scene from a new film by Randy Olson Olson is a Harvard trained marine biologist turned movie maker you might remember his critically acclaimed flock of don't knows -- documentary that poked fun. At both sides of the evolution and intelligent design debate. Olson has taken a similar attack -- his new film sizzle a global warming comedy. And he joins us now from the studios of NPR -- Culver City, California and Randy also welcome good to have you thanks great to be here so tell me why another film about global warming and why why a comedy about global warming I mean this this is serious business obviously but what did you want to make a comedy to talk about global warming."

" Because humor and sincerity any motion have the ability to reach broader audiences. This movie is to some extent the same basic elements as the Al Gore movie which I thought was excellent. But his movie had a lot of information and a little bit of humor you know they work with and trying to light and implement a few jokes. -- this movie I've used the same basic elements is kind of re apportion their amounts and tried to pull back on the information. And instead develop the humor much more and also the sincerity when we go to New Orleans suit received them. Results of Hurricane Katrina two years down the line right and that's where sort of."

" The movie ends up -- Let's talk about some of your characters because they sort of set up a lot of the humors. In this movie you're producers are too obviously well loft obviously game man named Brian in -- They believe in your film but they don't think that you are necessary the most effective personal tell the story. And they want to get a celebrity tapped to host the film I want to play clip from that let let let's listen."

" so we're -- need to interviews of people and I list here of some of the people I think that we got -- Craig and I are we did the -- we need -- list also -- so what I'm thinking are some of the world's top global warming experts which you know actually there's an -- here in Southern California standing -- so first choices doctor Richard Somerville Scripps institution are -- our first -- especially Tom Cruise right. I'm going to be fantastic pastors is not a scientist. I at all times to houses so let -- don't know the difference. I would love to you I'm -- Kate Winslet has actually saw her on them into the actor's studio and she's comes up is really legitimate and very British and I think that would add a lot of authority yeah."

" She would have a lot of authority because you've got a British accent. -- people responded that. I mean much right in at this with a straight face but it occurred to me as I wanted on it does into we've. Comedy that's made up with comedic actors as well as real interviews with real global warming expert. And some of these scenes come to a great had not want to sort of play another clip this is. Your first interview was one of the world was what is what is with one of the world's leading climate scientists and everything seems to be going well until. Marion. Who's your cameraman played by comedian Alex Thomas sort of start interrupting the interview and let's listen to them."

" Let me ask you three simple questions do you think the planet has warmed up substantially in the past hundred years yes. Number two do you think humans have played a major role -- that warming yes. And number three do you think humans can do something to stop it or Ursa yes."

" The moment. I mean I'd I'd be real witching when I'm not trying to you know just. Interrupting anything I think this -- bloated and probably -- ansari identified that you're not to do this okay but I mean if it -- got to be real about it. They globe warming may have checked it was yeah month I -- it."

" So talk about that scene I mean tell me what the point what's the point here is -- standing in for your average Joe who has kind of scared you know every day skepticism about climate change. Yes Marion does represent the average person and he ended up asking very simple and broad questions some emerges kind of common sense questions. How is it that if global warming is so important we're getting things like it was snowing in South Africa at the time live aid concert that they had. And these sorts of things that that people need to accept the general public has a hard time with some of the of the science of global warming. And that's a lot of the voice of this movie which is that we interviewed two of the top climate scientist Richard Somerville and Jerry meal. And they're doing their best to simply. Take the truth and get out there to the public problem that they're running into is they've got. Voices and other you and each ends of the spectrum that got skeptics from wonder action grabbing the same pulling off to their agenda. And then the environmental groups are graphic -- stuff and exaggerating it time sensing that this possibly into the world. And the scientists are just stuck in the middle there trying to communicate the truth to the best of their ability that's mostly what this films about Newton. Which brings me to your."

" Role in the film you play a straight man to -- Marion and Antoine. And and Brian in -- your crew they make fun of you call you up tight. You're sort of a clueless scientist you don't really know how to communicate your message you want to use PowerPoint in the movie. And my question is. How close is the Randy that you play in the movie to the real -- That's extremely important and it's on the for the science world to listen to. That I'm not play acting in the movie for the most part that is the real me and when those guys are making fun of me in the Senate hearing room. There was no script that I was not present for that scene that's the real Randy did all my friends that consummate fund for fifteen years in Hollywood because. Despite living here for fourteen years. And hanging out -- the hippest and coolest people I still have the voice in the style and the mannerisms of a scientist and that's the way that it goes."

" Judgment. Europe and boom boom just and prevent type you know what I think it is what I think do was like. Buster is key to kick that dude you're picabo wouldn't solve -- TV he was terrible -- the exit sign."

" So we get the point Randy you're bit -- bit of a square here. I'm just last month the Senate failed to pass a bill curbing greenhouse gases that many maintain a responsible for climate change. Is this the problem I mean that the message just isn't getting through at the scientists aren't getting the message during. I think that's absolutely the problem that the polls show that the Al Gore movie put the issue global warming on the radar screen. But it hasn't changed the overall public opinion about whether we need to act on on this issue. And they've hit a brick quality and you know had to say habit some extent the Al Gore message is run out of gas solo bit and there's a need to. Re in better rework it I think he was trying to do that last Thursday with a speech that he gave and it's it's important that other people. Trying to that in their as a huge disconnect because. You get this malaise among the general public and at the same time just last month you James -- the former head of NASA. Speaking to congress and saying that people who are working against this sort of legislation should be tried for crimes against humanity and that's a huge disconnect between the voice of the -- world. And the actual implementation of the political path through. That's Randy Olson he's the director of sizzle for global warming comedy. The film has its east coast premiere Saturday at the Woods Hole film festival on Cape Cod Massachusetts. For more information about the film go to our website here dashed now not a war. And -- thanks so much for coming in and talking with us today. Let's."

" You're listening to here now. Television's big hit of last summer wasn't a program on HBO showtime more any of the other usual cable suspects it was mad man. The Emmy Award winning period piece about the advertising industry. Mad men airs on American movie classics a cable channel known more for showing first rate movies then producing TV series. Here now critic at large Ed Siegel has seen the first episode of the new season. Which airs this coming Sunday night and he offers his take on what makes madman so compelling."

" Despite the nostalgic type. The late fifties and early sixties weren't an age of innocence. Last year is mad men set in 1960. Reminded us of the real thing. Richard Nixon beat poetry racism anti semitism and a booming post for a sense of prosperity and confidence. Who could not be happy to vote. By some supersonic jet flying right over the months and madman is a plan ad man those advertising guys and their gray flannel suits on Madison avenue where men are men. Fueled by alcohol and nicotine. And women -- their prey."

" them. And god closes -- door it was addressed the issue could put acting class entry can."

" Madman is hardly a celebration of those sentiments. But it's not an overt condemnation of anyone or anything either and that accounts for much of the madman dramatic power the main character Don Draper. Is capable of extraordinary strength. Extraordinary weakness he's married with children but -- from mistress to mistress. Don Draper doesn't even Israel name. He put his army dog tags on a slain soldier in Korea during the war there so -- family would think he's -- allowing him to forge identity. And the show is all about finding one's identity. And a time of crushing conformity and ethnic and sexual stereotypes."

" So now it's on the season to."

" The opening episode is called for those who think young. Pepsi Cola's advertising slogan from the early sixties. It's 1962 on fact and John Kennedy is in the White House after defeating Richard Nixon and -- agency backed. Here's Draper played by the hunky Jon -- dragging on a lucky strike in reacting to the -- slogans for new client Mohawk airline."

" It's so it's about an airline that's flown by Indians. Maybe -- plane with some arrows stuck in the corridor that's funny. That's because people's attention right. -- three advertising for people who don't have a sense of humor. -- Austria."

" Cameras the riveting starved Russia but madman is really an ensemble endeavor beautifully written by Matthew Weiner formerly of the sopranos. HBO turned him down for this one and has been regretting it ever cents. It's not only perfectly peopled by a great cast of little known actors. But Weiner captures the early sixties with a mixture of -- in style transporting -- of these soon to be changing times. With the jolt of an Edward hopper painting or Frank Sinatra album cover. The mad man still want a party like it's 1959. But their bodies of betraying them. After a doctor tells us to slow down. Craig -- and a borrower receives a young men reading Franco Harris meditations an emergency. And he gets a copy for himself. But why to find out more about himself. Together information. Or a seduction."

" Now and quietly waiting for the catastrophe of my personality to seeing beautiful again. And trusting. Potter."

" The other main period -- Jackie Kennedy's tour of the White House is used with equal effect tying in the personal professional and political aspects of the -- We now know of the JFK it was cheating on his trophy wife but the women in the shadows eject DO as a model for growing sense of power over their own lives. Is playing dom goes to get ahead coming to an end. Sunday night's premiere responsible too much time setting things up for future episodes. So if you haven't seen the first season try to rent the dvds. That'll get your -- list of what makes these men and women so mad. And so impossible to stop watching."

" Here now critic at large and simple. The second season of mad men premieres Sunday night on the AMC cable channel. For more go to our website year dashed now Donald. Coming up is it a Venus mars thing the great debate wine versus beer. You -- now."

" It's one of those age old questions that can sometimes prompt -- passionate debate. -- Or one. Morning old Somali AA argues that wine is a cornerstone of civilization cell value that it was once used as currency in ancient Rome. -- Caledonia beer brewer responds this way. Beer is more deeply embedded in human DNA and it's discovery prodded humans to leave their hunter gathering ways behind. And becomes settled farmers. This is part of a running dialogue that morning old and Sam Caledonia have in their new book called he said -- she said wine. He impassioned food pairings to debate and enjoy from burgers to breed and beyond. And Barney old joins us from Philadelphia and San Caledonia from New York welcome to you both thanks for thanks for having missed it daddy. Let's dive into the debate Sam here's your chance why is beer better."

" Well it's a more affordable luxury frankly you know you go to your local interest -- twenty bucks. And you're sure -- that money to Kamal at least probably -- six packs of world class fear. If you go to that store transferred tornadoes are world class wine that I have to -- can't did into the Dixie cup isn't that they've that. They get some challenges on the and also just in terms of complexity. More ingredients leads to more complexity winds just agree agree agree that's all it is. And beer at the very least it's foreign audience water yeast hops and Barley. And if you look at modern American craft brewers like my breed dog fish head we use reasons beet sugars fruits places you name it. So the complexities truly infinite compared to blind which relies on one ingredient."

" Okay Marty give us your -- it twice as wine better politics is actually made part of my argument for me he's right that people are willing to pay more for wine and they are for beer and the last time I checked the laws of supply and demand would say that that means it's higher quality product. But I think the other part of his statement there that -- multiple ingredients are somehow a additional quality factor is is also deeply misguided I mean the reality is that. Wine has one ingredient grapes because that ingredient is so perfect on its own and needs nothing else to make it taste better. -- clearly beer we need to throw other stuff into the fermenting tank to make it appealing we need -- we need spices and in his prairie apparently reasons in grapes and an all sorts of other stuff too to make it a high enough quality to be. Able to compete with my -- perhaps."

" Sam sounds like fighting words but wait before you respond I want to talk about this project that you -- started that brought you together to samples of both beer and -- what you called competitive -- basically it started with a hemp beer tasting that you're both expert panelists for I don't know -- that gave us the had agreed to be inevitable remember that sampling error just my short term memory and -- hailed the that had Beers go to. From there we worked at my brewery on some sales and marketing. Projects. That we were doing and we started the series of dinners where the diners. Would literally vote -- real time at every course and we would -- with every course people really -- and we've been doing that include -- I think -- is either -- one victory -- it's completely -- around fifteen to fifteen would be -- winning environment interest."

" I thank him up one you think you're up 1 but I -- happy but Marty you acknowledge its in its close anyway if not neck and neck right. Well one of the things your -- does in really interesting ways is it recommends what foods go with what Beers and more lines and I have some of the wine and foods that you recommended right here for enemy. Marty you recommend this Australian. And poked -- name with a sharp cheddar cheese."

" I think that there's a perception that cheese needs to go with big red lines -- and I was like to show it with a greater later style. In this case you have sharp -- going to have that salty twang then that really kind of hangs in the mouth like -- struck tuning fork. And the acidity that is such a dominant feature on your first sip of drinking wine the two together neutralize each other and are better together than they are part."

" Like had to say this and -- is lovely the chatter is -- great together salmon and come to you you're gonna make the case that this dog fish had IP AU brew also goes good with a sharp -- basically fatty foods particularly cheeses like this literally code -- com. Warring countries bounces off -- beer because of its bubbles and that's effervescent axes and -- full you know. It scrub your palate and Putin's more. You can taste more -- what is going on if I drink -- my targets being exfoliate it. This is telling them among other things. It's stronger than average Cubans also citrus -- sort of grass the elements to the hearts which of course is -- woods gives appeared bitterness. Works really really low industries and I'm sure you -- that they're both great and I think in the interest of journalistic objectivity I'm not going to lobster to cast a vote in in this continuing debate. Well let's skip to desert we have some dark chocolate here. Sam let me start with -- recommending. A young's. Luxury double chocolates out chocolates that type of Barley grows. And but yelling at Bryant so this is a nice dark chocolate witness -- I'm not usually a stout drinker this is like Guinness right -- this is well this is going to be a little bit stronger than guiness and a little bit more alcohol content and strong -- character and that roasting is that comes from the dark -- and contributes -- that appeared. Is going to be the perfect foil for the sweetness of the chocolate I gotta say this is one of the most fun interviews I've done enough for a long time -- I'm not a big -- person but with the chocolate it kind of takes the edginess of the -- away but it's a nice combination Orleans now -- what do you recommend that -- have witnessed dark talk I didn't want to."

" Go for the heavy heavy traditional port the fortified sweet dessert wine that people always think it was -- but I thought we do something a little bit further off the beaten track today and introduce you to one of my favorite red -- It's a spark claimed. Dessert wine for northern Italy it's called brick canto DR creek and it is low -- alcohol it's full of bubbles it is lighten effervescent. As a fair --"

" here -- very kind of almost rose it's darker than rose but it's lighter then than normal read more. He is a vivid kind of move color and it it gives this fragrance it always reminds me of wild strawberries and rose petals may be with a little bit of black pepper white pepper has a little bit of spicy -- is well hmm. Yet this has got a nice sweet sort of bomb effervescent thing going it's it's it's great Britain and it's kind of the Buehrle equal or in because it's curve that's why it's -- good right Sam because. Yeah. But seriously along the along that line you do have this -- down but I mean I I've got to believe that after dueling this way that you come to appreciate each other's drinks I think that's absolutely true. I love the fact that beer is single serving that I can come home at the end of a long day and open the fridge and open a bottle and not have to worry about what's going to happen to the other four glasses in that -- after I've had my one and Sam what about your acceptance of of wine is a drink of choice it's true they're great moments when I reach for a line mutilate in the case of a grease fire."

" But don't fight everything -- the fact -- it -- the money does -- if I go into -- restaurant. And they have -- seem boring line up of the same five generic gliders I will protest vote and usually get a people who are from Oregon and a great red -- from Washington State because at least I don't supporting the hop growing. Sector of America by by the line from there and actually really do enjoy them. Morning I think that's that you called damning with faint praise and --"

" I'm a regular now. Sam you're you're you're right -- definitely does play dirty thank you know -- I think at the end of the day I think that sandwiches Italian heritage might have been drinking a little whine somewhere along the way here. And that really in many ways both of."

" These products really do you share quite a -- well let's end -- there on that note of beverage unity thank you both so much for coming in Sri. We residency and helping us out. That's Sam Caledonia and -- old they're the authors of he said beer she said wine. In passion the food pairings to debate and enjoy from burgers to -- and beyond."