Title: Here and Now for Wednesday, August 20, 2008

" I'm Robin -- it's here and now in a moment an honest conversation with an abortion doctor she says. Yes some women have regrets and doctors rarely but do make mistakes. Still abortion must remain legal and safe. First the news. The Cold War is over associate secretary of state Condoleezza Rice to reporters traveling with her today after she and her polish counterpart. Signed a deal in Warsaw to station parts of the US missile defense shield in Poland. But is the Cold War over or reigniting. Russia is furious that missiles will be stationed in its former satellite even though. Rice insisted that the USC's rogue states such as Iran or North Korea as the primary threat."

" Missile defense of course is aimed at no one. It is in our defense that we do this."

" But of course today's signing comes after a week in which Russia invaded Georgia. To protect breakaway regions that Georgia claims but Russia believes want to stay in the Russian orbit. Julian Barnes is pentagon correspondent for the Los Angeles Times and Julian it's why you understood that that move last week by Russia pushed Poland. -- agreement which had been in a stalemate. But did bill looming missile agreement with the US and Poland also push Russia into Georgia."

" Well I think that the background. Russia asserting himself and Georgia is the expansion of NATO is this missile defense in Europe. This wasn't it triggering event for Georgia but it is part of that contacts in the background that's going on a part of the things that Russia is annoyed about with the west."

" Well and as Secretary Rice was in Brussels yesterday for an emergency meeting of NATO Georgia wants to be a member Poland is a member of course Russia isn't. So how does today's news you know -- those -- waters."

" Well it it. Firmly -- the United States in protecting Poland which is that the US that NATO treaty obligation. On but it also sort of complicates. The -- situation. Eastern European states like Poland say. The recent events show why we need to expand NATO to Ukraine two Georgia it to the other former Soviet states. Western Europe is not so sure about what we should do and whether that would in -- Russia further so. So we're going to have to see this play out over the next few months."

" Well to the agreement that was signed today for the missile shield in Poland it's part of an American system. It tells more about that system and what is the thinking that it will work."

" Well initial tests of the system but weren't weren't. Very successful on there interceptors in Alaska and there are some other interceptors and other radar in. California and other states. But the most recent tests have. Intercepted two missiles but what is important to remember is tests have been on very simple Intercontinental ballistic missiles were kind of saying that North Korea would. Potentially fire there is no sense that would work to stop much more sophisticated. Missile like the kind Russia asks."

" Well and that brings us to the question will the system be built the New York Times reported today that last spring in the house armed services committee voted to withhold money. Until the system could be certified reliable and the presidential candidates are split here in the US John McCain is for the shield Barack Obama says the system is unproven so. Isn't done deal."

" I don't think it's a completely done deal arm and I think that it is very likely that two a rudimentary. System -- will continue to develop. -- will take billions more to make it. Stops sophisticated missiles and that's that's much more. In doubt whether we love or go that far."

" Well meanwhile Poland has agreed to having missiles in its backyard if the system is ever built. But the US also agreed to could Poland with patriot missiles as a defense against short term attack. Do we assume that means Russia and how useful will those patriot missiles -- against Russia's huge armaments."

" This has some really very important to. Some politicians within Poland to get this patriot battery the US was. Prior to the Georgia military action resisting. We didn't want. Put those batteries in Poland because we -- they would be too provocative. That does. Further complicate. The US Russia relationship."

" Julian Barnes pentagon correspondent for the Los Angeles Times thanks so much. -- Now we're still waiting for those vice presidential picks and the age of abortion has made its way into the conversation. Republican senator Lindsey Graham raised the possibility that John McCain could pick a running mate who favors abortion rights. Talk show host rush limbaugh's response if McCain does it's not going to be pretty well. A CNN analyst speculated today that McCain is just floating that idea. So that when he picks someone like OC Mitt Romney who only recently became anti abortion. The McCain base will be relieved. While Democrats too are wrangling over abortion language in the party platform that will be voted on next week. Most Democrats closer to the center putting more focus on reducing the need for abortions. They've also given a speaking slot to Pennsylvania senator Bob Casey who opposes abortion rights. Polls show Americans don't like abortion but don't want to see it outlined in the early stages of pregnancy. And doctor Susan -- understand that we perhaps conflict we want to revisit our conversation. And this advice it may not be for everyone because she is brutally honest about her own abortion in 19763. Years after abortion was legalized. When she was young and didn't feel ready to be mother. And -- as well about the abortions she now performs as a Doctor -- book is titled this common secret. My journey as an abortion doctor and I began by asking Susan Whitman to take is back in 1976. Tickets to the very beginning in your own procedure. You don't -- very pleasant picture."

" It wasn't and I want to just preface by saying that I'm not sorry I had the abortion it was a good choice I'm very grateful that it was legal at that point. Unfortunately it was I was in a clinic that did not pay a lot of attention to providing patients have a lot of information. Or really tending to their emotional needs when I was scared instead of explain what was going on I was basically told to shut up and -- still and eventually held down and then you can because Arafat. Being held down was given an injection and basically knocked out. That is not the norm today I think about that procedure and what happened to me how I felt about it with every single patient that I see now you could have left that room and said I'm going to devote most of my life to telling -- young women had to do this because it was a bad experience instead. UN the other direction why. I hadn't expected to be doing. Primarily abortions I started out going to medical school because I loved. Doing births because of my on abortion and it -- doctor should do it better than what I haven't. Oh. Sought out and learn how to do abortions myself while I was in my internship. And when I went into a small practice in my hometown. Expected to do abortions for my own patience which is I believe how it should be done. And was told by the hospital board that I actually could not because well because of course nobody in -- community ever had aboard had unwanted pregnancies and -- In -- the second big blinders that what this total denial they started. Inquiring at some of the clinics within a couple hundred mile radius that provided abortions for women if they needed help. And the response was incredible it turned out there was a huge need for physicians who are trained in doing. Abortions and that we're willing to come to the clinics and provide that service I think your point in your medical career where you were considering other. Aspect of medicine and then you came across the -- Who desperately ask you for procedure and you didn't perform that would happen now. I was you know at the bottom of the chain involvement in domestic incident turns and she testify. Could please helper to couldn't contain -- pregnancy she said that her man would kill the violent situation at home. She didn't have any money from the state did not pay for it and couldn't find anyone that would provide the procedure for free -- for reduced rate for her. Social services wasn't willing to plan on taking the baby away from the home and tell they saw a reason to. And she asked about it many times her daughter pregnancy I was not able to helper. -- am in hindsight. And would have done things differently will because when we Q page it goes up you called the emergency room -- you goes -- to see what. And she's holding it and it infant she is given birth and gone home and a short time later returns to an emergency room in the baby instead. And she said you know basically said to me this is your fault -- you don't saying is if there has been killed that the that seems to be implies. He means. It's something I can't comment on. Did you feel responsible for. I felt very responsible for not meeting the needs of a patient that asks me for help. It I did come to realize that it wasn't my fault that the child. Was dead it was largely my fault. That the child was born. You were also influence later -- the -- them. -- Graham well I've been providing abortions for a couple of years by that point tax analyst for years but I wasn't talking about a publicly. However that Bennett. Incredible onslaught. Of protesters and violence directed from towards myself and my family both of the clinics and in our home. Com and there was going to be a special on six ms. atlas install my grandmother never missed sixty minutes so I went to tell my grandma about. The sixty minutes -- before she sought that I am working women's reproductive health care I was trying to approach to gently and see how worries we're gonna go with -- and she. Basically had me get up and come sit down beside her by her rocking chair. And proceeded to tell me the story of when she was very young girl and to him her friend had gotten pregnant. My grandmother suspected it was incest but didn't know that for sure. That. Young woman knew that she couldn't continue the pregnancy it was very taboo. And so grandma and her sister we're gonna help the young woman and the pregnancy. And she'd told me some details but not a lot basically said the use something sharp. And to start the bleeding and they -- that would end the pregnancy and the bottom line is that the young woman bled to death that McGrath sat. In the bed with this girl and she bled to death. And was discovered by the father of the young girl and they were might Graham a sister and her were told -- can never ever speak of this to anyone. And going to send -- of that story she basically said to me she was glad that I was doing abortions safe. So that woman wouldn't diocese that women wouldn't I'm being murdered by the best friends and that's how she saw herself as amateur."

" Where you mentioned protesters at this point you see wearing a bulletproof vests carrying a gun commuting between clinics in different states wearing disguises. Because abortion doctors had been killed you were receiving death -- he had a stalker. Describe what was happening."

" In Montana and our home we woke up 1 morning to. People shouting Susan kills babies. We're living at the end of a three mounted and rode out in the woods the house was surrounded by people we didn't know obviously -- was a banner across the driveway that said Susan kills babies it was about finance on the doorstep with. -- a doll and it's spattered with red paint and fake money people basically blocking the driveway my daughter ended up having to back to school. In a police car number of times. They went to her school. They followed me to and from the airport. Tell the passengers they shouldn't get on the plane has. -- the baby killer on board. Your stalker Michael Ross who -- writing unbelievable -- you telling you how he was going to kill you. In your own account he no one would do anything -- you you wrote to another county where he was active and they -- response was you're kidding me. It was it was just chilling. We've talked the local police in everyone dissent wrote in telling does something we can't do anything about it and then it clinic in Missoula Montana had a fire. And the next day I received a letter from Michael Ross saying gosh see what happened in Mazzola. I wonder if you're gonna be next. So we've sent all the letters that we had at that point over to the fire Marshal in Mozilla and they apparently sent those letters to that county attorney in Missoula. Who called me and said my god this is outrageous this is a felony crime it's called felony intimidation. We're gonna have him arrested and charged immediately and they did. Com and there was such a subsequent jury trial which had to testify and read some of these letters he was found guilty of felony."

" He's out do you still fear for your life in Italy the United -- and in writing the book does not make it. -- it does but but in the bigger picture this is what has to happen. We'll be back with doctor Susan -- in one minute here and now."

" Would have been more of a conversation with a abortion provider doctor Susan with Clint. We're reprising it as the issue has been raised in the presidential race with speculation that John McCain might pick a pro choice EP. Doctor Whitman's book is this common secret my journey as an abortion doctor. She receives an abortion as a young woman in Oregon and became a doctor and abortion provider and target. I asked her why she continued to perform abortions even though protesters targeted not only her -- her family."

" The biggest reason I was able to continue working is because I had an incredibly supportive. Husband and it and currently support of daughter I never said to her than although I am I in hindsight I know that she understood. That she was the one person who could've gotten to stop and I think them protesters know that they know that the weak link is often with the doctors families in particular their kids."

" Let's talk about the procedure you insisted on screening patients he seemed very concerned about performing an abortion that you or the woman might regret. And you are brutally honest about the when you did -- You performed the procedure and then found at one."

" We found out that the embryo was not a result of the rate and that was. My fault. Every woman I ask every single one are you absolutely sure this is what you want to do is this your decision or somebody pushing you are forcing you to have this abortion in anyone. Hesitates in the least on answered that question. We stop you even in some cases seem to say -- living you know I'm not sure your candidate here absolutely. Sometimes the body language is screaming no when their voices saying yes I listened to the body language I would. Much rather have a patient the extremely angry with me or even to the extent of taking legal action against me for not doing an abortion. Then for doing one. But this is peace seemed clear afterwards what happened first of all and there -- start and I asked those questions and she said she was sure she said to me I can't continue this pregnancy that should have been my clue. I should've asked is -- medical reason is or something else and I didn't ask that and then what I I was done I was look at the tissue the products of conception comes on the uterus. Came into the room and asked how she was doing and she said she was so relieved that she could never have continued. This pregnancy. Because of the rape and when she said that. My heart just sunk my legs went weak and I sat down and kind of crumbled down into a chair because I knew that she was two weeks different. She had conceived two weeks before the rate with her -- conceived with her husband which. Was devastating for all of us all of us an end up having to deal with -- with counseling later on. There are very forgiving they knew that this was not. Information that had had a time I have not done the single abortion since then without an ultrasound first. I will not make that mistake again. But some was even when mistake that would be enough for some reason that see that's the reason why we can't this procedure at all. -- that's absolutely ridiculous to think that we should outlaw or not allow abortions for any woman because of I'm single things that may happen. Come to an individual woman absolutely not. You. -- also tell the stories of women who write Ewing come to you thanking you. From the letters and Colson. Squeeze of the hand that I get from women after I've seen them is. Extremely helpful pictures of kids when women come into the clinic and we see that again their body language or some part of them as saying -- and we send them away. I told them very precious and I'm very grateful."

" What about lines for instance a -- that would mandate that it wouldn't take time to think about her pregnant and pregnancy that the 24 hour waiting period. You seem to almost be it can advocating that. In interviews that you do with women in the counseling that went to a law. -- is law on many states and it that's a real barrier my goodness -- look at places we've got women have to travel and a big distance benefit have to come to the clinic and have information that's state mandated and leave and come back to the clinic at a later date twice. Find time off work fine child care. How about for the girls under eighteen should be allowed to get an abortion and -- consent. That's really hard I mean when you say you'll. You know don't you want miners to tell their parents -- of course you do. -- reality is that huge majority of miners didn't talk to their parents about it but there are a handful of situations are some. Women who can't whether it's because of potential violence that -- She needs to have. An alternative a court system to get permission from a judge but of course that's another barrier. You have sympathy with people who really just haven't uneasy feeling about abortions to sympathy in that. Of course I have a lot of sympathy for people. -- even if they're out from the clinics and are just they're being available if somebody does want to talk to them. There are many people who I've talked to over the years what was fascinating -- number of times you had women who work actively and time. Choice who ended up in your office. Yeah how -- they rationalize that I just didn't know I didn't realize what it would be like to actually have an unintended pregnancy many times it was for the very reasons they were condemning other women whether it was economic reasons a career reasons. Because it's their life on that got breast cancer or cervical cancer if they don't end this pregnancy. They may die and when I talk to them and say. Do you feel that the woman who lives next door to you are her reasons and -- less than yours and the willing to look at it in a different way. Susan you paint an incredible picture and -- I'm wondering is this. History you ready for -- physician with -- clinic who was under assault and literally put an ad in the paper -- some will argue. All of view that we helped. Are you saying something to them as well you know -- not to come out but it. Tended to waxes to support the people who -- there for them. Absolutely one of the things that's. Hurting us in our quest to keep reproductive rights available to all women is that we don't talk about it. And it seems that being able to talk about it we'll allow that woman who may have some emotional pain. Even though she had a procedure that she very much felt you know she needed she is no place to put that -- I actually executed very well and I am. So hoping that the spoke open the dialogue and make people understand that it isn't just politics isn't. Theory it isn't just law it's individual lives nothing is black and -- we make decisions at any given time in our lives. Based on the information we have at that moment. And that's we have to remember. Conversation with Dr. --"

" from earlier this year her book is this common secret my journey as an abortion doctor. We'll tomorrow I'm here and now a touch with Montana writer Rick back on decades of being an activist and just -- pain in the butt. In an effort to save -- wilderness he writes about that's tomorrow. Still ahead today should be seems give back the antiquities that belonged to other countries when prominent museums practices no they belong in the world. After the news here in. On the NBC comedy the office would be accountants Kevin has a lot of -- with a paper shredder completely off. --"

" Athletic club."

" It was stripped."

" Worked it did -- his credit card and that's not to any sugar you can plainly see it's -- staples shatter. And staples paid to have a place in the episode. And in case you missed a logo on the shows who started talking about their products. Here's the CW network's Smallville touting the virtue -- views disposable contact lenses. I had classes -- say. You're kidding and blindness it back. Besides. And that's just looks so good with glasses of our. Q did rescue. As nothing the TV show the biggest loser had almost 4000. Product placements in just a couple of months. All -- all product placement has grown 33% since last year. The Federal Communications Commission is now considering regulating product placement on TV. A coalition of 23 advocacy groups has petitioned the FCC in favor of regulation. The Writers Guild of America is asking for an on screen cried out to identify paid placement of a product in the steam. Adonis Hoffman is the senior vice president of the American association of advertising agencies Adonis I'm guessing -- this issue."

" Certainly. We think that additional regulation is not necessary. At this time."

" We'll look kind of regulation is their first of all tells what do what do advertisers. Have to do -- programs have to do when they place a product."

" Every commercial has to be identified in television program our radio program. And that usually happens at the beginning of the program or at the end of the program. So in the credits or something they might cities is such and such supplied by yes promotional consideration provided by whatever the company."

" Well you know what critics say that hardly anybody reads reads the credits. And and it's that more winds suddenly comes up on the screen whether it's Coca-Cola or. Popcorn or red room reading articles about how Cisco Systems in bids as some of its. Tell -- presence conference call devices in programs it it's that moment. When you know -- discipline mentally or just you know understanding you are watching a commercial within a program."

" Well that's an interest in point -- and -- I'll take that view that the Federal Trade Commission has adopted and that is if a product appears in a program. And it's not making a claim. That is. -- views and not better than its competitor or techie if you can provide you with wonderful. Vision from here on out from. If it's not making any kind of claim like that. And there's no additional Independent. Disclaimer or noticed required."

" This is -- the Federal Trade Commission considered decision 2005 and shut down the idea of more regulations. On private placement. But did you know what people say that the coalition of groups that has petitioned the FCC says. This is hijacking. Programming it makes a mockery of TV -- limits. In good sort of Enron's you know that the advertising limited it threatens public health. Because it puts things in front of people products in front of people I go back to -- color -- for -- kids might watch that parents that want to keep kids away from in that case."

" Don't you think about that -- just it's sort of an ambush well in fact there are very clear rules affecting children's program. But I think that the there. Focus is on programs that are not children's programming but who happen to attract 30%. Or more kids should think of American Idol. Or some other program where kids. Like my held teenagers can watch the emotion not children's programming by definition."

" And Simon cal sits there with his -- him as he judges -- contestants on American Idol as you said non cable children's programming. Can't contain any product placement. You I'm -- noted study shows that children under the age they can't even distinguish between. Real television commercials and content so they certainly can't distinguish between products that are placed. And content. What's wrong. With putting some sort of a crawl as the Writers Guild is calling for on the screen when a product becomes necessary product placement."

" Well I think cruel would be exceptionally. Distracting and it I think they've also call for -- pop up. In normal programming so you've got you know pop up every time a product appears question becomes -- where does that stop. There are enough programs where promotional consideration as provided for by companies and you know win is. Disclosure enough."

" What about the creative aspect of disclosures one thing. Do you think that advertisers. Have the right to go and actually. Oversee how these products are written and programs because we understand -- of the deals that are being struck that. Advertisers are standing right on the set and they are writing the story --"

" Yeah that's uninteresting you know function of the marketplace and and -- honestly speaking -- not getting into that. I think it's a Dicey area. And it's it's to be left between the the writers and and and the producers of the show and an answer of how they work out there economics in the -- creative. Planned for the show I do think that with respect to as the the pop ups in the crawl one listeners on the show not long ago we are talking about this very same issue. Call in person from I think Iowa said listen you know we have enough spam. On our computer says so we've only go online this kind of requirement where instant disclosure pop up for crawl. He likened it to spam on TV. Eventually. Viewers will migrate away from free over the air broadcast television to cave where these requirements are not in the law."

" or some shows that a figure out a way. To maybe have some more creativity when product placement is asked of them let's listen to -- from thirty Iraq. This is where the actress speaks specifically to the product that's in place in the script."

" These Verizon Wireless phones -- so popular. I accidentally grab one belonging to an acquaintance."

" Less certain that Verizon Wireless services just unbeatable -- you might not only -- on TV I would be like where's my nearest retailers alike can get one. Can we have a money now."

" And the problem Adonis Hoffman as you can -- that so many times you know you can only had a kind of fun so many times. And made only on thirty rock we just talked about the creativity it do you think that advertisers have the right and again show executives are giving them this right. As you mentioned at some of the marketplace is driving this thing to interfere with the creative process."

" There are some studies out there in the suggests that. Consumers are really unaware of a vast majority of the product placements that occur. They seem to look at this background yours set material or just kind of you know gray matter out there. And don't really think of and as a commercial war. Don't pay attention to the fact that the Dell computer and it's on the desk was bought and paid for just a computer who is this."

" Problems that you mentioned that viewers are migrating away from television and they have so many other choices. Our advertisers simply trying to find a way to stay ahead of the viewers because you know the economic TiVo you can get rid of commercials you -- words you can. Choose to watch it through another method you know instead of watching the office on television go rent the season. Is this part of why advertisers are doing."

" Yes they are. -- on television network television and broadcast television. I have trended downward over the last several years and and the technology that's available to skip. Commercials altogether but also on line and mobile out of home media. Advertisers want to be able to capture viewers where they are. And they want to have their message is a scene and and remembered."

" Adonis Hoffman senior vice president of the American association of advertising agencies. -- find out more about this that are Whitney Houston -- Adonis thanks so much -- Canada -- pleasure. Kids can make a note here with my paper mate. Those who live here that here you're listening to here now."

" Most score one victory for the hackers Boston's metro system here -- we call at the end BT DT. Yesterday -- lost it in federal court to keep 3M IT students quiet about how to hack into the agencies fear card system. We told about the students last week at that time they were under a temporary gag order that prevented them from presenting their research at a hackers convention. The students found ways to clone -- magnetic strips on the -- fare tickets known as Charlie tickets in theory allowing people to ride the -- for free will. He knows Monica Brady-Myerov reports on the case."

" Anatomy of a subway hack it sounds like a thriller novel but it's the title of a paper 3M IT undergraduates. Plan to present earlier this month to the Defcon conference of hackers. And now it's all over the Internet explaining how to -- subway tickets on the MBTA. The battle over this information was in federal court again yesterday when that -- asked a judge to extend the gag order on the students for five months while it fixes the problems. The agency admitted that students got it right and know how to counterfeit the Charlie tickets. -- research on copying the computer chips on Charlie -- it hasn't been proven to work by the MBTA. But a judge ruled the students who weren't violating federal law with the information and lifted the gag order. Cindy Cohen of the California based electronic frontier foundation represented the students who are away on summer break."

" The First Amendment one today because it -- says that if you engage in security researching you're speaking truthful information. Do you get to speak it is improper for someone to go to court. And try to get ideas that the federal laws doesn't -- But Cohen says the students don't want to tell everyone how to clone Charlie tickets she says their presentation made it onto the Internet. Because the MBTA filed with the court documents MIT students and -- private information. That would at the you know little house on the disease can add to the extent that any information got an MBTA -- the public record here so kitty second somebody figured out. Had to do this I think in BT have to look at itself in Hawaii you providing this confident information to the public instead of really try to address it -- lawyer."

" For -- refused to comment after the hearing in court he said the T fears the students would get step by step instructions on how to hack the system. In a statement MBTA general manager Dan for baskets says that now that the court proceedings are done he invites the students to sit down with them and discuss their findings. Earlier this month the three students gave a confidential security analysis to -- MBTA so it could fix the gaps and told them they want to to present some of what they found at a national conference. IT security officer gave them the green light. But days later the MBTA filed suit arguing that distributing information violates the computer fraud and abuse act. Yesterday the judge ruled that CFA NA as it's called is David people who create viruses or worms to attack computer systems. He agreed with the students lawyer that publishing their information or sharing it with an audience is not the same as transmitting the virus through a computer to compromise a system. The ruling is a good thing for the larger research community in the Boston area says John -- legal director of the American civil liberties union of Massachusetts."

" If the statue had been interpreted. In the way that the MBTA was arguing. I think we correctly argued it would cast a substantial fall under --"

" The students presentation also notes that you don't need a degree in computer science to ride the -- for free. Entry ways are often unguarded doors are unlocked and turnstile control boxes are opened in many stations. That's your -- Monica Brady-Myerov -- Monica said the students were not at the hearing yesterday but we spoke last week with Jackie Anderson. He told -- he -- teammates were surprised by the lawsuits since an MBTA official initially gave them the okay to present their paper at the hackers convention. He said the whole case has been a huge learning experience."

" I put -- back I think that -- a lot of but the law and the moral and a lot of and willing -- situation that overnight turns into a a huge fiasco and I think -- yet perhaps. They had to have been some sort of miscommunication here or something like this to happen -- had you know reassurance that they never in the science and apparently that you know that was the case."

" Where the MBTA -- take five months to fix the security -- the students revealed and they're going to have to fix them with the gag order removed. Exactly his team's work is online you can see that are website here -- now Award. And by the way the students got -- hate on their initial paper for MIT. So from a debate on who own security information to. Who owns all of those antiquities in museums around the world have that in a minute here."

" Support for here and now comes in part from the bill and Melinda Gates foundation dedicated to the idea that all people deserve the chance to live a healthy productive life. Information that gates foundation dot org."

" I'm Robin -- is here and now. -- owns antiquity it's a volatile issue as museums come under increasing pressure to return art objects to the countries where they were found. Greece has long sought the return of the marble statue was taken from the parthenon by Britain's lord Elden."

" And while Greece waits last year prove -- yeah university. To agreed to return a trove of precious objects dug up and brought -- Almost a hundred years ago by charismatic professor and explore who was a model for the character of Indiana Jones. Well our next guest James Q -- take issue with the idea that art objects belong to the nation state where their found. He says they belong to humanity and -- is that while the return of objects may be a victory for nations. To defeat for humanity. You know is president and director of the art institute of Chicago and former director of the Harvard University Art Museums. His new book is who owns antiquity museums and in the battle over ancient heritage -- you know welcomed. And you know you look at this topic and it may be difficult time for you because. You know everything in our cultures saying bring it back I'm thinking of Indiana Jones in the latest movie return the crystal skull I think you know to where it was found. That's sort of the thinking it's promulgate by popular culture --"

" Well it is I think and it's it's promoted as well by some almost a -- international organizations and -- go for example. Has been organizing a number of international conferences promoting the return of cultural property. To its country's abortion. And that's based on the assumption that these objects. Have particular meeting to use some particular people not to be with those two -- People Independent out it might have been acquired or meaning they have in the context which are currently seen."

" Let's give an example you -- you happen via in room. Winning ancient bull was returned to Italy and by the metropolitan museum of art in New York first of all tell us about -- W felony is crater of I set -- correctly."

" If that's correct the -- traitor it's an ancient Greek pot that was made by a Greek potter -- Yes and the -- cronyism is signed by -- for his. It was made for the robust commerce between Greece and he Trulia which is an ancient culture in the northern part of the tenets of the is -- today Italy."

" Well see there it is you've just described something that's Greek. And yet it was returned to Italy."

" It's an interesting point that you make and not only that this -- we see evidence of which. Greek culture who was profoundly presence on the peninsula that is now Italy. Before the rise of Rome and then even after the rise of world."

" It took Italians have appointed it's the land they live on now who is it's sort of you know -- birthright in that it's of their land wouldn't Americans. Also feel the same way about oh Indian artifacts that were kept in another museum overseas. Or at parts of the US that was French for instance you know before at the revolution -- wouldn't. If things were taken from the land isn't isn't that a point."

" I'm not arguing that these things that are on the the jurisdiction of modern nation state shouldn't also be identified with the modern nation state in some way I think not quite in the long. Racial ethnic cultural wave at some modern nations once edited to be shaped reformed. But rather on arguing for the sharing the broadening of this as something that would promote understanding around."

" Infect you call these laws that nations have to keep their cultural property within the boundaries of their country you call these. You know nationalist retention is cultural property laws it's that they do they retained. There's things and you say. These laws work -- the ideals of the encyclopedic. Museum. Yours is one the art institute of Chicago -- encyclopedic. Museum. And why is that more of a problem for those museums when things are retained."

" But in -- beat me in the origins of it lies in the enlightenment. The idea of the museum as a repository of things dedicated to the dissemination of learning and in control of support understanding and tolerance."

" It is the idea that -- rules one can have representative examples of the world's diverse."

" Artistic cultures for the benefit promoting understanding of culture has always hybrid is always -- is always bearing the imprint."

" Contact with -- and strange and wonderful things is the idea that we can learn more about."

" Some multiple narratives of our human ancestors on this planet by bringing them into contact with each other. And we -- in the process promote greater understanding of the current conditions within which we live on this planet."

" We're up these points is that if you have all of these things juxtaposed under one roof. Someone can see them whereas if they were all in separate countries -- to either lived there are travel there to see them. But it seems as if they're ugly they're nasty little quid pro quoting here. Because you write that d.s encyclopedic. Museums are good idea which means they're a good idea everywhere which means that. -- museums like use your have to share."

" Absolutely and that's just exactly the point. What must be adjusted -- seems to -- is not that principle the encyclopedic museum but the."

" Balance of power economic forces the world and we know that that's happening it's going to be a different world."

" Hundred years now and we can take advantage of this realignment. To promote this idea of understanding."

" The change -- now even as an easier theory to hold. As a westerner you know for countries that have been plundered that I have seen things that for instance were religious items. And up in a museums as artifacts. Is it harder for them to accept this let's all share her this material than it is for someone in a western museum."

" Well I'm not sure that might it should be case."

" Because they -- they were the plundered and most western museums have been the archaeologists are the colonizers of the the the imperialists who."

" You know what I wouldn't make it easy equation between."

" Archaeologists and imperialists or between."

" What not and I'm differentiating announcing those in different ways that. Items got into western museums."

" Where they have been of course preserved and studied and -- to the world of the world that is."

" Increasingly moll file right now in which there are some millions of people living outside the country of their birth currently. In this age of new globalization. That's good I'm sure it is easier for -- decision doesn't mean it's wrong for me to say you might be easier -- it would make the case we also know that those people all value. Access to current profit from manufacturers produced globally -- maybe automobiles I iphones radios and they might be."

" And we ought to find away. To share our ancient past equally."

" We you make another point that not all peoples live in their homeland and don't get to see artifacts because in some places. -- politicized on banning this is an opportunity for some people who have been shut out of their homeland to see things from their homeland."

" We can certainly see that throughout the world that there are people who have sought refuge and new beginnings. In new places who deserve to have access but just to the new things but the old things which they might identified as for example of Nigerian living in Chicago. But -- can be said also of Chinese or Indians living in Africa. Living in Australia. It is a fact that as we left -- episode 60000 years ago we have sought new. Opportunities in the new opportunities we've come across that was strange wonderful things that made culture as a result of the."

" James you know is president and director of the -- to -- Chicago former director of the Harvard University Art Museums his new book is who owns antiquity museums. And the battle over our ancient heritage and he's written several articles including. When that I'm looking man. In -- publication who owns the past antiquities from great cultures belongs to humanity not nation states that emerged centuries later."

" Jim let you know one question for you for -- to Montebello the head of the metropolitan museum of artists had to be leaving. Soon at the end of the year and there's much speculation in the on the Internet that you might be candidate to move to that procedures museum. Your thoughts on that."

" I remain committed to -- Chicago into its place. In the life of the great city."

" A camel and -- be the first to know you can punch behind and it. Thinks it was just keep us."

" Support for this podcast comes from US trust Bank of America private wealth management wealth management for two days well."