Title: The President of Flow… and the end of Hip Hop?

" I'm -- this is open source from the Watson institute at brown university. In American conversation with global attitude we call. Hip -- again. This time. The president of global. And the soundtrack of bullying and protest and commercialized boulder street Louis to make some people sick. But it also has driven that sound worldwide. The professor of hip hop Tricia rose at brown. Author of the hip hop awards. -- the -- that's a much with a heat hit job. As with a hip -- key to Obama time Obama directions. Obama values. Who's gonna how to read it the other day was arguing. In this conversation that is Obama. And -- and the world that are catching up. Is authentic the poetry of it is. It's real it's sometimes and inspired after -- rose who grew up in port city in the Bronx and went to Yale. Staked out this field of higher hip hop criticism fifteen years ago the book called black Norway's. Rap music and black culture in contemporary America and of course."

" Everything has changed since then Tricia rose. What does hip hop tell us after all about this age of Obama as -- Well Chris thanks very much for having me here -- what I think there's actually quite a bit of a distinction in terms of what makes Obama an exciting moment and I think he should be distinguished rather substantially from hip -- now he has. Used his generational proximity. To hip hop. And his incredible media savvy to draw connections between young people as voters. Many of whom but not all of whom are hip hop fans. And his candidacy. I'm but I think what what's happened is there's a win which this whole lands is a sign of the way that we understand race in America. And and by that I mean that. That hip hop is the primary symbol of cross racial communication in the cultural arena and as such we then want to connect that. To our next greatest most profound black symbol in American society at this moment who is President Obama. The first ten years of hip hop some of witches. Predates what we've known in the marketplace. Is all about a variety of challenges to inequality. On a variety of what some of them racial some of them economic some of them and gender they were about battling. For cultural space defendants face a voice the sense of place now what happened with commercial hip hop. It's really in the mid to late 1990s when hip -- becomes an incredibly commercialize product. That it begins to merit a different set of assumptions. About Americans about black people and it begins to really reflect an entirely new moment I would argue in black culture in the west. Now we have a place where instead of having crossover which we used to have right where black people would invent things create things -- and few would crossover and then a -- pop. And then after they would go -- then we learn all about the genre will now. That doesn't happen anymore now African American culture music is at the center since the late 1980s early ninety's. At the center of American mass culture so for example an artist like Nellie can do the Super Bowl. Halftime show several years ago summing it never would have happened fifteen or twenty years ago on rap star or some sort of marginal black music at the center of the biggest public spectacle of American patriotism. Absolutely never but. That's symbolizes a critical shift now Obama is part of this shift right. But he's not really a bit in the same way I mean think about what hip hop articulates it doesn't articulate. A deep investment in a kind of upward mobility and a sense of belonging and a interracial lose them in its explicit narrative there's really no -- for that mean there's no you know Harvard. Educated. On -- law school S spy hearing. In a racial multi racial cultural narrative is perfect husband perfect dad and -- don't narrative for that that's not what hip -- primary product is now does that mean that they're individuals love it to fit that bill shore. But that's not hip -- product. But because he's picked up stylistic elements because he's younger I mean just so glad you're that he gets associated with."

" Is black male swagger. There's not and let me just you just have black male swagger Miles Davis said black male swagger you know much Olympic black male swagger Malcolm X had bitten on those people are hip hop generation. So what's happening is we're we're looking at all black culture through this marketed lands of commercialized hip -- because. And this is where gets rugged you're ready -- because this is what we think black people are what's in the market so all we have in front of us as a nation is. Obama hip hop. -- look oh. Yeah."

" It's truthful about real -- experience and about the market fantasy about what America wants black people to be. So it has removed much of what the richness and complexity of hip hop which many scholars have talked about. That hip -- origins are which is a wide range of expressions and stories and ideas and since the late 1990s hip hop has and the commercial round become primarily. Driven by what I -- the hip hop trinity witches gangster Pentaho. And bills the most profitable. If we pull out top ten hip hop songs right now. In terms of radio play in the country in sales you'll be appalled by what the content is. That is about a certain kind of fantasy that ultimately coexist -- alone Obama but you could we have this this hyper generalized panacea that were continually perpetuating creating a market for. And the brilliant genius of the more artistic and poetic hip hop is actually commercially on the margins Chris so that that's what we have to grapple."

" Stand back again I would've said when it first or -- did say that in that in the chuck. That have I was driven by what I called the entertainment value of social anger. What then what happens that's were talking in late eighties early night."

" Is Yemen at the same time there was run DMC there was MC light there was EP MD there is there'd be camera team I mean it -- hats at Camden where just. Many many many artists now what's interesting about public -- that they -- about a political anger but that's social consciousness hip hop with one small piece what I'm saying is that. The richness and depth of the genre in its most successful forms historically. Have not been allowed to continue as its success grew so the successor elevated and the images narrowed. And we haven't counted for this. Politically aesthetically social in other words. We haven't figured out why and how that happened now how that relates to Obama is fascinating to me so for example 70% of consumers of commercial hip hop that would be -- and fifty cents here Eminem's York Jay-Z UN ludicrous -- or -- you know a little lane. The -- artists are mostly bought by white males between sixteen and 25. Now if this is an Obama generation one that's kind of the same age group may be eighteen to 25 or thirty that we claim has now voted for Obama. So what's the connection in their mind right between fifty cent. And Obama that makes them comfortable with both ideas. That's the question I'm actually interested in because. That explains this the way black people are being understood in the modern American consciousness cross racial."

" Didn't mention not as good. I didn't he doesn't sell a lot of records even if -- don't sell a lot of records he's the kind of cult star that comes -- Out of this is for me as this is -- and a great interest. Put him in the equation and in the question. Why not is a wonderful example of a person who has labored continually to do what he does to stay true to his particular all right but also to stay true to what he thinks is. On socially and politically important and and he's done that pretty well he's gotten lots of critical killings but he does not get radio airplay in any mainstream way. No matter what the content of his of his lyrics and certainly even when the songs of funky -- they don't make the radio so why is that now I understand the underground is crucial but that's not what's driving the sale and and notoriety of a hip hop is not enough times as much as I wish you where it's not that Richard generalize and and is that the ghetto or is that the those flights are -- bad borrowers that are. Driving the market. Well that depends upon the market you're talking about -- get it was the product. And and you know working class and poor black men have used the economy of hip hop as an industry basically this is a great industry for me. I can do this I'm automatically authentic. Already fit the bill on and if I can rhyme. Then -- set and so they're using it as as a market and I totally understand that but what's happening is it because the fantasy of blackness may miss the part nobody it's a tough thing Chris because I'm not blaming people I don't think as any hostility I don't think there's any. Negativity intended here I think that what's happening is that when not. Terribly literate about what we're consuming racially so what what we think black masculinity is and what we think authentic blackness again. Is this sets a very long old fashioned stereotypes and with reproducing them without much discussion without much critique. And we we treated as if it's authentic so someone like something like fifty -- Right who can become a multi multimillionaire. Mostly he's an okay NC -- not not by any stretch of the imagination in terms of his talent as a lyricist. Scott could be it's just after drinking and he's very good -- But if you if you what is his market claim to fame was shot nine times so many enemies -- to walk around with a bulletproof vest. Every one of his songs and dvds you know uses this notion of constant threats to him on the street criminal basis to justify his credibility is street cred and -- his artistic --"

" I don't mind a couple of artists doing this but it is becoming the commercial mainstream hip hop. And and and we just we don't have a little interview with a nobody wants to confront that problem -- to talk about besides money even. But not even Albany area and you know I'm just curious about you know for example when Obama said he you've played. Get -- up on his iPod he went to -- what any go to -- why did you say Lupe fiasco why didn't he say one of these underground highly. You know. Socially conscious interest in artists that were in line with his political values. JC was not is not that character."

" She'll party and honestly want to pay cash best by any means Obama. Chicken fingers and -- and and see it got to. Worse it. Would devastate a guy who's currently in Brazilian -- nobody. -- resilient probably worked with liberal. I've grown up its own without any -- which it was about pop baseless at least for most of us don't -- negative and help -- Obama. Okay -- man -- right how could it national like not a bunch did you win that. -- and she."

" Decode this transcends racial. At a radical that one of the key strokes in the way. Hip hop preceded Obama made it may be made impossible becoming. The the the the language and culture the music of everybody."

" But this this is what I was not terribly clearly getting -- in the very beginning we were shooting a very wide spray here. The terms of racial exchange in American society changed dramatically with the development of an incredibly extensive mass market economy. So the expansion of the Internet cable television. MTV BET in the late eighties explosion. Of mass culture across hundreds of venues that were previously left to to a three TV stations previously right. Produced all of these places for cultural cross racial exchanged and that trans racial context. Right sets the groundwork for an understanding a sense of people feeling like they're familiar with an Obama. Because they have a wider range of cultural images and ideas. In this wider cultural space the various critical distinction. This is the place Arsenio Hall where Bill Clinton could play the saxophone exactly or even you know I mean -- any number of places where this began to take off but that's certainly one Bill Cosby in the Cosby Show and this idea of various types of mass marketed black men in particular."

" Became very important that is -- groundwork for this but here's my big challenge. My big challenges. To -- To what degree is that actually take place common ground. Meaning by the people who were doing this transiting across an intro racial consumption -- living an interest trends and cross racial life. And and by that I mean I don't mean ethnic immigrants. Who live in much closer proximity to one another but I'm talking about primarily native born born black Americans -- the group. With whom hip hop is most closely."

" Does this prove that thirty years of hip -- in some sense to me -- yeah. Obama possible."

" And civil rights movement. -- made Obama possible we really have to be very careful with this. This fantasy we had about hip pop's relationship to Obama I'm I'm gonna keep fighting because I think it's a dangerous. Very simplistic connection down there's no question that hip hop encouraged. The cultural. Comfort and that. Obama represents. But he really represents the fruition of -- civil rights legacy. And that's what I think people see in him predominantly. So I mean ultimately I think you know what we're reading the hip -- lens has four generations of black culture behind it. Almost all of his gestures his language his connection to the church's. Everything he does is is both civil rights and occasionally. Hip hop generation our young people seated at the hip hop. They seem a little pieces -- keynote -- shoulder the fist -- and all of these moments and there's a great deal of excitement and a symbolic point of continuity. I see that but. If he's hip hop. Then how to we account for this sense of really systemic belonging. That he represented he represented a claiming a systemic belonging in America's political system hip hop has never articulated that. It is always articulated. A radical outsider status. And a sense of demand into the system and a refusal to officially participate in additionally no rhetorical. Continuity between Obama's political vision. As an elected official in the system at the highest office. And the cultural politics. You know my originality outsider status and a kind of perpetual. Speaking truth to power type of politics in. It's just not know."

" Lot of it lot of questions in the when introduced that that. Beautiful baritone you hear in the background that's bronze on the line from Birmingham Alabama. When it. All time favorite radio callers is that technology strategist. The singer and writer whose book in progress is titled the jazz mind. -- I want your perspective on hip hop in this American including black American moment that I called the Obama era."

" Well thank you for having me Christopher. And I'm delighted to do you -- She has hit. The fundamental point that I'm making in in my book that I'm working on it and everything that I'm talking about on the subject which is that. There is no question. That the impact of hip hop culture and rap music. As a softening agent. Of a certain a group of American voters to turn out for President Obama. Nonetheless. To believe that hip -- created Obama. -- the denial of all historical context. In fact I think there's hip pop. Is the anti thesis of Obama. What it has turned into. Is the antithesis. Of all of the values. And progressive understanding. That black culture has head since we landed here. For 500 years ago that's a low -- treasurer -- goes well. Well you know she -- the dock outlaws the boat into the notion. But one thing that we can see is that. The encroaching cancers of misogyny and anti intellectual -- Bomb are being delivered. Quiet on filtered. To young up and coming black children whose minds are undeveloped. And -- let's say why children as well. But unfortunately. For many of the white children who might V fans of this music if they make it -- they make a mistake their parents can rescue them. And I do not necessarily believe that mean of the black children who -- wholeheartedly. Adopt this faux African American culture. As the authentic in a historical context black culture their parents can rescue them. Nor do their parents often know that they need to be risky. So this correlation this completion. Of hip hop culture and Barack Obama. Is wrong Barack Obama is just a brother. Some of you know don't think via."

" Yeah -- I so appreciate what you're saying and I think that you know. What what I would label you're saying is really commercial hip hop because what it because of and I know that's what you mean I just for the listeners I want to draw that distinction because there's so much. Bashing of of all hip hop because the commercial -- dominant that's right. These individuals who need money. Have to make an album that's going to sell weak right and and that's the linchpin right there. Why do these were images sell sell well and visit the part of Americans decided we're not comfortable really addressing this is not just in hip hop TV it's everywhere. There you."

" And as I don't clog up like a better job."

" I question a different question -- and it starts with -- year. Which you're -- daily in dialect that these successes as a black assertion civil rights jazz. Including be about the -- R&B and you're saying. Pop goes in the very different direction. What about Obama as a kind of synthesis but the real question of one as yours doesn't the Obama phenomenon change hip hop I mean given a few months. The impression on the surface is that -- that Hezbollah has embraced Obama but not change his tune. Even to the degree that he's criticized. The message. Isn't that going to be an Obama effect even on the message and the sound. Isn't there a chance even that the Obama reality will eclipse."

" Hip -- Chris. You're you're taught him about three different strains. Bryant. Bomb we hope that the Obama effect eclipses hip hop because. It is the only hope. -- I'm the greater American society and I think black society as as a whole. Hopes that the impact of Barack Obama. Is such that individuals who see themselves as marginalized and limited for whatever reasons. African American and otherwise but in this careless talk about African Americans. We'll see a light a path. -- empower them to not lose their identity. But to find wider avenues of opportunity. In America. Because the corporate -- exception of hip hop. When adopted by African American use. Is a opportunity death sentence. --"

" Yeah I you know I I think that. -- I I may have sent us off in this direction more than I intended because I don't actually think that hip hop is the antithesis. Of opportunity in the US I think it's an articulation. Of the history of denied opportunity. And despair that results in the frustration that results from sustained. Marginalization. And refusal so it's not just something that simply rejects to be rejecting but much of it grows out of very serious problems in American society that are the direct result of in some cases the undermining of the civil rights agenda. And some of the failures of the strategies of of what happened particularly in urban America in response to the civil rights agenda so. I don't see a pop as the problem I see. The manipulation and transformation of hip hop in the commercial arena. To reflect a twin almost on topsy turvy dollar for anyone who's listening remembers these dolls we don't have opposite dolls on either side you flip the -- a night got a different doll. A kind of topsy turvy conception of black people and black culture on so that on the one hand you have Obama the exceptional African American right who. Who seems completely at ease and comfortable with -- all of mainstream upper middle class white America with business with. You know he's excellent on but we sort of imagine that no one else could have been president until him no black person was not only qualified but capable -- he -- this incredible exception and then on the other hand we have this. You violent so called street culture of of ghetto black authenticity which has this huge market which is presumed to be quote unquote authentically black and these are long standing fantasies of opposition about. Black people. So this this is not new and I think what we get lost in asserted print. And blaming hip -- for this fantasy projections right and blaming hip -- for a set of conditions and instead what I think we want to do is look at it is a roar shock test that can speak to us about ourselves and less about it in another itself and I'm not disagreeing would you bronze that he does often reproduce some problems. As it becomes so powerful as a market identity. But it's not the source of those problems and too much of what I think of conservative agenda has done is make people think that it's responsible it's hiding the real culprits. Who are responsible for the and I spent a --"

" At a time in hip hop wars going through that trust me I am not authenticate any conservative agenda. By any stretch but -- idea of imagination. Arm but I do want to say thumb in the best thing which we call commercial hip hop. That entity existed. Unnamed before. The civil rights movement ever began. Thus the close conception of the bad negro. But. This person or this concept and its validity. Wasn't level lauded as a legitimate mode of progress and uplift."

" I still want to know. What the artistic voice in hip hop. He gets to say has to say say about the economic crisis say about. Undocumented workers immigrants other working class causes that that may be front -- now for a."

" Long time I can give -- several good examples of that very easily most death has some great a great song called mathematics. Which talks about the the sort of the equation of inequality in society and and how it plays itself out economically and culturally. Immortal technique is a Peruvian rapper. Who does incredible systemic -- some might call Marxist critiques his gender politics not so great but neither is marxism in general good on that front. On sort of critiques of of Third World politics of of white supremacy of class oppression and of you know I'm isolation and get it was -- Lupe fiasco from Chicago. You know Barack Barack Obama's and you know relative hometown on you know just incredibly smart both aesthetically. And rich. Poetic but also really socially and politically smart songs like dumbed down songs like daydreaming. -- push a song about a black skateboarders that you an idea that he could pull that off in this narrow market context. Paris Tokyo -- and an idea just be here for you know the coolest. You know attention so there are many many artists who another only be Jean gray -- part South African but also hired African American who. Has some incredibly good music and see light actually is making a comeback and she was really count as I hope that works. In in successful terms untallied Cali. So they're arguing many many artists who are doing incredible work not just political -- let me be clear they are showing. The -- it's a Tribe Called Quest has has done some new work at least Q tip in particular to me to come back. Word that it just says look this is art form and a poetic form that has in incredible range of expressive possibilities and it. And we're gonna hold up that range of possibilities some of its hopeful some of it's about. -- to have the right kind of mindset some of it's about just lovin' and interpersonal relations at some of it's about politics and and the future of belonging so -- what it's it's a rich and diverse conversation. Unfortunately it's not nearly as accessible to should be the Internet is very helpful for this and so we must turn to. You know -- sent -- both of you know up and coming AG trip technologies to make sure we're in this conversation. But but that that space might argument in hip -- wars is it to make space for all those artists -- somebody has to go out there and fight the good fight both."

" In the name of hip hop. And against. The destruction of."

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" I wanted to have that approach as well but I think that approach sets up a type of cognitive dissonance. That on the one hand we're trying not to throw the baby out with the bath water. But on the other hand. The baby the other David is in the bath water is giving a bad disease so what do we do with the bath water. So. So what I'm saying is that I would love to be able to save. The great aspects of the music totally. Bomb but I also but I'm afraid. That gang culture. Prison culture. And they culture that is antithetical to mainstream. Opportunities. -- aspirations because that appears to being that a makes individuals appear to be disloyal. -- something that we unfortunately. Are going to have to stand up against. Very very very very stringent -- When I don't want to."

" It you know questionable when not going to be able to do that standing up against those things stringent link which I agree it. If we don't draw if we're not showing that was sophisticated enough and understanding young people's both investment in it and lived experience so we can't fight gang. Behavior only by talking about behavior we have to talk about. The structures of families -- to talk about chronic joblessness -- to talk about the incredibly unjust policing of the creation of criminals as -- war in terms of the the way young poor communities are policed educational system -- we look at all of that together we don't say it all of that is the only thing that counts your attitude your approach your behavior has a huge impact. But they have to be taken together because if we don't -- what people are experiencing. They will say look you're throwing the baby out with about what that means you're throwing me out with this problem and then we really don't get anywhere that that's been my experience. I I hear you though there is apparel. That's why we have to get drained a bath water -- fast as possible as -- parker writes a week but we really have to be careful tossing the whole thing out because it is a generational investment -- so profound I wish I could describe it quickly."

" I know I know I love."

" Well. Only -- things from the you know we want to stop -- won't -- and it. Betancourt and the kkk and -- discriminate. -- that only Jim -- hate when they pegged back. What can demonstrate."

" That -- straight talk."

" Prize or do you that you're the jazz mind in this conversation I want you to make the connection and disconnection between hip hop. In your view and -- say the the royal road of African American art specially through. Through jazz and bebop period as you use specially dot. -- be due to the punch in mentioning Miles Davis but what does or doesn't that -- that music have to do with -- And -- today."

" Well I think that -- great questions of them really interest it and I'm I think one of the things understand is that. Swagger without substance. Is foolishness. And when Miles Davis swagger and onto the stage. Law. Charlie Parker walked onto the stage. Law Duke Ellington glided onto the stage. He's one of these individuals. Had an intellectual depth. That could equal any artistic. Abilities which they have the same is true for Stevie Wonder is the depth of Marvin -- depth. Although. Just likely -- pop in -- you might want to talk about. Jay-Z your big here to pop they had flaws. Well the main thing for individuals understand is that. There has been a consistent trained. Of intellectual authenticity. Regardless of whatever personal life social problems they had it. They were all in selects. Charles -- whether or not he worked in the post office. Was trying to scrap promoted do his his big is -- advanced -- whatever. He was an intellectual and I think that much. Of the corporate hip hop is anti intellectual. To just such cynics touring with. Level as to -- for me as to seem resentful. Of the fact of particular types of opportunities. So I do not see hip -- in the music to lineage because the musical lineage of African Americans. Has consistently regardless of genre regardless of technical efforts and says that they had. That would be one thing that you always saw in black music was dignity. And I do not believe that hip -- even of the best artists. Has always been a dignified music. Because of its content not because -- beat treasurers."

" Well I mean -- isn't a long debate among the black cultural critics but. There is a level of extreme in some of your argument that I think is misleading although I do think your larger point which is that. We are seeing a kind of market driven model of success right -- would we even have a -- train if his only reason for being an artist was to make money the answer is no what I so I see that point is really crucial but. You know we have James Brown we have Aretha Franklin. We have -- you know Bessie Smith who these people are smart people I would be hard pressed the call and intellectuals do I think their musical geniuses yes what they head wasn't intellect of dignity. So when."

" But not but not not at that time I mean really -- James Brown was considered daughter. Was considered a -- example of a country blackness that was not dignified that was embarrassing same thing is true for early women -- zionist. My point is to say that I think jazz gets elevated to a certain kind of intellectual life and it. Above other black music as a way of making this claim -- the antithesis of that and I think the histories more a couple of great brunt brunt tonight."

" Fight that -- tiger and jazz but that's that's slightly different argument I want to come back to develop in the Obama moment. I like your idea of thesis antithesis synthesis or some thing. Put these two trans racial. Powerful. -- together bronze where we going with the win this town -- this. Transracial conversation in the next 25 maybe ten years."

" Well I do think that this is a reset. And a cultural and illusion like we have not seen since I'm the civil war -- the resell them. -- hit the reset the big cultural reset that the word of the month and I think the future that's unfolding is one of great opportunities. Is we all are able to understand a particular effects. -- the fact is that. Poor working class people in the United States -- hard hard time the next fact is that. For it to heart I meant far Harden as daisy would say -- for individuals -- of cross the united stays black and of other races. Need to be shown the long term value. Of the standard English mainstream. American. Structure. Not because they won't lose their racial identity. But so they can have wider opportunities to be truly free in expressing it through taking the economic roads that are presented to them now. At the end of the say next five to continue appeared where I believe this door is opening. And the end of this of this time period when the door shut. I hope that as many people who have had the opportunity to widen their horizons and investigate. That they might be able to move forward because I think after that. That we're going to have an area and age of intents. Difficulty. For poor people across the country who have not avail themselves of the door that Obama has opened so he's opening the -- I think President Obama is opening the door. Very very wise I also think it's sometime. Before any of those of us like you expected it will be shut -- very tightly by hand for a long time. And I think that happened at into the civil rights movement was what well."

" Oh my big double. What hit you about what it's what the problem is gold applaud. It out that is why I laughed about the is that the world as it did he get the problem is -- always. Listen to it. It's. -- like him. -- Like that it's all gonna go --"

" wrote where is this trans racial culture and conversation. -- Well I'm and I think that there's no question that Obama symbolizes. A new moment a reaction to ending the consolidation of wealth and power at the top of American is unprecedented in human history and he is part of our rejection of that at least half of the nation's rejection of that I think that one of the real question is are we going to be able to -- knowledge the way. Race and structural racism plays a role. In class inequality and resource. On accumulation at the top if we can't grapple with those things simultaneously. Then. There will be no ability to -- create lasting change we will be in this permanent. What do you recently a civil war moment over and over and -- where we refight the battle over. The terms of black belonging the door is somewhat open wide open I would say absolutely not yet proven to be so it might. Get relatively wide open but he cannot be it's very unlikely to be open long enough for everybody to get through so what that means is -- we have to create that we can't blame the people who didn't get through because the doorway of an open long enough we have to ask fundamental questions about our racial language what matters to us can we see one Obama represents what he cannot possibly not represented. -- and and and the other really big thing Chris is our ability to say look we can at the same time Indian nation who can elect a black president. And be the same nation that cannot admit structural racial inequality. And it's flat contradiction that we've resolved properly. We would we -- we will move dramatically forward and and continue to do so."

" One of the things that people don't understand though the most of hippies. And I'll speak for myself these wonderful little lives with great moms and dead who struggled so I could have everything. And who did not do the same parenting job at their parents did. And you can see that those parents that are say aged 36 may be in down move and a little more opportunity but maybe not much more. Are doing a different job parenting what happened in there the crack at him that's a bad --"

" You know but that -- track with wins I you know urban renewal which basically just destroyed already fragile and uneasy in his right it was negro removal is James Baldwin used to -- you know -- a great book -- has -- rude shock which I think you would especially appreciate -- because. What urban renewal did to the that the networks. Of human connection and poor black communities that work profoundly human -- rich even though they were resource -- They weren't rich and human networks. Jazz club 1600. Jazz clubs where physically torn down during urban renewal so well -- about why jazz died as a local organic musical fuller. Right engine relatively speaking -- right right is is really about if for structural destruction well -- anyone other reasons as one."

" would say well why did die quickly. Jazz died because. Funds for four high school and elementary school bands and public school district in a way that's right mid 1970s not as a Vinatieri over the same -- that. Hip -- its banks all right. That's so we understand that that that is happening and you know segregate desegregation. May not or integration have you a look at it. May not have been short term at least the best thing for blue collar and then working class."

" But it would've been without these other policies but and the problem isn't actually do what they did was take. Without getting rid of and not to sound like some mold you know we you know pan Africanist but I am you know you know -- they didn't ever exactly it -- put a white supremacy what they got rid of was black institutions that protected black people against white supremacy. So -- integrate you into a world where no one admits that anything's going on and we're going to act like you should be able to overcome all of this individually that's why the magic negro still wins because. Individual who succeeds. Proves the system just. Right claims that and that's and it's not just so that's why are I have to be honest so as you fight against this commercial about where you are which god bless you for trying to do. You know just I think the language I would recommend is that -- these kids need to know that this is a safe haven for there. On their demise in a way -- and I mean not not not not that the music is the cause but that. It is big it is it is articulating. -- hit a sense of impossibility that they should not accept. Well I and that's and that's what I hear you worrying about rightfully."

" I would Tricia rose thank you and -- You make a wonderful conversation always -- thank you. Paul McCarthy and Sarah Marshall both produced and edited this conversation with Tricia rose and bronze in Birmingham if there's what is it about. This club connection -- Barack Obama. With the understanding where this country and culture are headed to send it your own -- on our web -- and radioopensource.org. I'm Christopher like. Thank you for joining us."