Title: Joseph O’Neill’s Netherland: the Novel of the Age

" I'm Christopher light conditions open source from the Watson institute at brown university and American conversation with -- global attitudes is what we do. This time we're tracking down the public meaning of -- newest novel. -- Joseph O'Neill wrote neverland. We know President Obama has been reading this spring his story centers on the culture of cricket it's hidden in plain sight a New York playing fields ever since nine elevenths. Cricket of all things the bat and ball game we barely know the old British imperial forerunner of baseball. Dominated now by Indians pakistanis south Africans Australians and west Indians who have loaned in the new New York. I make two -- here. That Barack Obama knows almost as little about the game of cricket -- I do which is zero. And further much more interesting. But he is found in -- news cricket in New York novel sort of pounding text for this turnabout era. This reconciling moment seemed who have entered this age of Obama. In which the game might just have giant in the nation's."

" Joseph -- it is such its role of women say to meet the author of neverland. You know you mention the game of cricket -- you can hear is they -- radio is turning out all over America. But I wouldn't -- that challenge down not for the game of cricket which had never seen and don't understand. But for the aura. Around the game and for the writer. That we -- behind CLR. James. James casts a huge glow meaning Iran cricket and so does. The fascinating character in your book truck ram -- I wish you just read one of those sections in which this Trinidad again. In New York truck -- Kasun. Builds kind of whole system. Political that is the human medicine around his game."

" Yes. You just extended for read this that -- Dream is to build cricket stadium in New York City and he's explaining to generation that of the novel the dutchman Michael Adams. Or as they it was -- on pumps. What he's -- six. At peace and starts truck polls and it just it is yankees cap. I have a question for. Far away it says. Coming west Indians would you say lived in the New York area English speaking listing is now I'm not talking about Haitians and dominicans what I've. Totally had no idea. Well let me enlighten you to exit waving to the frozen COLT who guarded the battery tunnel turn off. According to the 2000 census 500000. He can safely at 50%. So talking about 750000. Maybe even a million and growing. We have 60% growth in the 1990s and let him by the way west Indians have a better socio economic -- Hispanics. And the way that a woman African Americans that something exciting. The Indians he banged her hand against the we will. Population NYC has grown by 81% of Palestinians the Pakistani another thing. Numbers have gone up by a 150%. In the Bangladesh is wait for it 500%. In New Jersey there of aroma sensations -- Jersey City Hoboken Secaucus Hackensack and would. I have brought -- celebrations in the east central bring -- 20000 people it's the same New Brunswick Edison attrition. I'm telling you I've done the research -- all the numbers and if you think they're coming to multiple draft text usual wrong. They come into it real money high tech pharmaceuticals electronics health -- there's almost half a million south Asians in New York and then. Have you visited and you come to school in Astoria all the kids -- from Pakistan. You know what they do this that time these kids they -- cricket. If that just kills playground of about PS 112. They -- vacant lots that play in school yards and -- queens and Brooklyn. Just -- a block from me PS 139 he -- boys and girls of cricket bats even in this and a if I took you then I could shoot the wicket they've -- on the war. He grinned. EC we're going with this. He want to go to cricket stadium exit. And make no attempt at my amusement. That's right chipset but -- And away there's no way they and let a bunch of black guys take it -- prime Manhattan real estate. Hate to it stadium by the way -- said importantly. We're accessing the -- the battery tunnel whose old tiled walls invariably put me in mind W -- Stadium spells trouble just us Mike Bloomberg. I'm talking about an arena. A sports arena for the greatest greatest critic teams in the world twelve exhibition matches every summer -- by 8000 spectators -- dollars and -- I'm talking about advertising and talking about here right consumption of food and drink in the power stroke. He got a clubhouse 2000 members of 1000 dollars a year plus initiation fee to any squash camping -- indoor facilities a gymnasium. Simmering pool the sports book something for everyone. But at the century of -- cricket. The only true cricket club in the country in New York cricket -- That's great -- truck burst out laughing I -- what you're thinking I'm out of my mind that you haven't had to pick up. He looked at me ready. Global TV rights and game between India and Pakistan in New York City and state of the art arena. The Liberty Tower in the background can you imagine the panning shots. Chuck -- is furiously. We're thinking it TV and Internet viewership of seventy million in India alone seventy million do you have any idea how much money that this would bring in. Cook Nike -- desperate to get the South Asian market. We feel we breakeven in three it missed four years and after that. High on the Doris expressway now he -- an arm of the cold front page in the mainland beyond. Lights it started shining in Elizabeth and in the they -- It's an impossible idea right. I'm convinced it will work totally convinced. He knew what my motto is. I didn't think people had not -- anymore says. Think fantastic -- upset -- my motto is -- fantastic."

" Part of the news of your book neverland was this opens secret in New York. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands if not more than a million. With Indians and south Asians. Living in New York and thousands of them playing cricket. Every weekend. But chuck Graham to assume there's a get rich quick scheme may be here. But to all sorts of other meanings. In this in this game. Count the ways."

" Well I mean chuck has I mean you're never shall this guy chuck whether. He's an opportunistic idealist or cool retro active list. The one of the theories he has is that Tom. Americans. -- little. It. -- of America will never -- just before it's actually it's true destiny unless it plays cricket and this comes understand this game. You know the theory being that he can't -- quick hound hunting commenced on the rest the world -- Pakistan for example. -- and Adam. And -- This if he he sort of he's just as his nation. -- used against Americans and among Menino to make quick. But in order to get to play the game to think about him and -- the and and that by. Think. Unit fantastic as well but what's the meaning. To him. TU."

" To any of us."

" Well I mean it could it is. The meaning -- it will depend on the situation vote. One meaning which I was so conscious of when resources writing about it. Was that -- Union represents a boundary. American vision. One -- books as Americans. -- And -- and understands it much and live Indies cricket. That's when their unit vision of the world on sent to a growing stools. And Adam. Says that meaning. In addition to like. Like an old sports. Which -- played by men the obsession age. -- he's. An activity it is connect to memory. Childhood to some two recurrence. And to the strange kind of emotional moments ago and was spiritual landscape. That made it by and watch him secretly counting -- Iran and sent them."

" It fascinates me though the game doesn't interest me at all it fascinates me because but ten years ago I rid. What's that stays at number 36 on the Sports Illustrated all time greatest sports books. Kind autobiography. In terms of cricket by men and see though -- James the book is called beyond the boundary. And it's one of my it's one of them -- books I'd take to it as. And it's full of meaning all the more. On the news that President Obama is reading your book. There Netherlands which is the kind of child as chuck Graham Kasun as a child -- that I James. So I'd love to spend what time we had just kind of picking this fingers apart. Can I throw a few things that I think steeler James Kruger believe fervently for one thing TOR James -- a black Trinidad the end. Completely unlike VS nightfall in the sense that he was. Of the African persuasion and pan African and enthusiastic but man. Rabid anti. Colonial anti imperial who embrace the British culture too he embraced cricket about all of them embrace the cream deacons sort of thing. But he found in cricket a way of balancing somehow all the emotions around. Colonialism and imperialism white power and and black virtual city all of these things some have somehow came together. In the game. That parent is I mean what's your view on and that's place."

" Well I mean just a bit of background for this today as. There's no option -- it yet but this wonderful book I'm. Chris he's played in Trinidad and -- the island of course by the British in imperial project. And when. Yet -- as a black man came to play it gold club to Trinidad cricket clubs will. That membership according to various hues of of skin color yes and he's very end and James has been a which you it's an effect face and and and self. Critical because he joined the club he was a quite black man. And he joined the club weathered the demand would not playing just like he laws and as a result he's -- shamefully acknowledges in his book. That he felt that he sort of somehow some of to a club that sort of elevate him -- his. Natural station in any any took a -- prided. But of course as you mature world about to become a great Marxist philosopher essentially. He. He tried to make sense of this paradoxical obsession he had with the sports which he loved on a very practical and integration level -- them. All aspects of it that he was strangely wedded to the idea of -- day which was was certainly at that time very connect to cricket. And so on the one hand you have this guy who's. A subversive of the first -- and as you rightly point out he's also com. Seasonal those values in session conventions. In -- but sport of cricket. And and oddly enough. Although it's it's not that old. Because he's since seen economic -- many studies of social justice or -- wisdom. Economics frozen. -- racial politics. He actually. He checked -- he sort of he takes a very sort of on the emotional. Approach the question of race cricket. And in fact you remember a season critiquing or use as being. Tinged by racism obviously but he said we would it sort of -- so. Any sort of dispose of that issue almost. Impatiently. Because he has not to fish to fry he refuses. To the I'm circumscribed. By the narratives of racial injustice. And instead. I'm. Feel entitled. To participate. In kind of global discussion about justice. Politics and economics. -- And I think that for him. He's -- experience of playing cricket and that's the moral to -- on him. And what he learned from that experience. I think. Made him. Made him feel that this is a very valuable. Instrument. Team. He can't even think. Any critical project. And not just -- he actually felt -- and that is what he may lose. It's American -- he actually the cricket wasn't and -- itself as well yes."

" A matter of race teams meet James in some. Sees. Cricket as a wide enough frame. To bring the sort of British country tradition. Into a world where. As it turns out Caribbean virtual cities at criticism invention. Imaginations. Can make its own enormously distinctive contribution. Not as a metaphor of a kind of multi York transnational world I think is the point is that."

" Not but I mean it I mean unit as the CEO I think that lots points hit and one point for him specifically was this. Yeah if you were. A lot of members polarized races in Trinidad that would limit to the Internet designed divided into an African populations have page of additional message. Healer of allowed very few forms of self expression and one of those was cricket is the one of the Arenas will. Certain hierarchies were abolished and and and that's. That's called the gospels have in common and he sold that was a great thing -- where people could have access to. That's holes in the way on the cricket field. Intuitive they couldn't have outside the -- count. And also the the the unity -- patriot in Trinidad in particular towards dependence was. Unit went hand in hand with the in West Indies cricket team that gradually becoming a team reflected the west Indian population population density of the -- artists. -- But I think he also felt the court separately from those local things that this. You know one any -- he he took it as a -- and he said well this this is it -- cricket is now it's a wonderful thing. And why should we because why should we. Diminish ourselves we being the coolest people in this case combine. But the sixteen to kind of see it as as as as as being owned by the the color as the clear why can't we had settled so what they've made it to. And two off a -- not just is entitled to -- to the hum unit. The particular place and and and -- applications that the sport offers. And that's his courtroom that he's quite big. An important statement to make it's it's a way of throwing off. -- Colonial. In net cash grace of the world and it's a way of laying claim to. -- unit. That what the world has to offer. And and we see now in the in the way to cricket is now -- around the world and that India is is the main. He's the main. Powering cricket. And look -- who went on to actually come to come to. And will remain in the position for many years and deal seat of power in a and M he's not world."

" To a game that allows the tables to be turned its -- thousands of fairness and -- exactly okay. There's another big point that -- James celebrates. About cricket that it has. A morality. Almost built into it certainly the way the British -- that these -- Cliches like you know straight but actually it's not cricket -- he sees as a kind of code universal code of."

" But their play through. Yeah I mean. He won't it is it's a historical irony is that. The black pollute. Is is essentially gotten now I mean it's it's the game of cricket even couldn't it. Can be improved it is now capacity commercialized. So much running at stake. There's Iranian actions stake. Business it's gone away all of motorsports which says. Morally. Neutral. -- and he knew he -- and that the element of set playing good sportsmanship. His boots rose and I'm an independent -- post game I think golf is pretty much any game there will reach. In. Places kind of two months -- on the conscience of its place."

" And yet steeler game curry would say that there implication way beyond the sport itself what he learned in school -- cricket was. You don't chief. You don't ever be for the empire you don't complain you don't make excuses. And actually applies to more than more than just the thing."

" You tell us votes in how do you. How deep -- it promulgate as news. He Obama wasted is I think cricket that that doesn't actually work kind cricket doesn't make you in -- person. But it did he -- the way it's turned out that's not necessarily the case."

" Chuck Graham could soon in your -- surely thought it would make a better New York to better America a better world. -- I think I."

" as it deserves the CIA -- it thinks that. Not a thing -- of course we have to remember that these that these findings are actually unit presents and a little schools. And I am. Unit to tune into the net to -- agree to a member of just recently when the cavaliers lost. And it was a big who aren't in the papers that LeBron James -- zero congratulate. And punitive it is and after the game in the playoffs. And people were puzzled by this. And the fact that they were puzzled and it was on -- Com suggests to me that unit there is that there's a basic X kind of their basic notions of of kind of sportsmanship are. He never -- and what little kinds sport what was revealed was that he was. In is that -- In it he he actually maintain sticking -- what if I've lost Tina. I've lost on the opening I don't know conducive to amend an excerpt -- think anybody. And and he equated that so -- win. And I'm being radical pastor. Where is. In I think though you know older ones of those double plays one duchy. To put on this tape actually you know that isn't."

" Yeah we at least one of these hallmark and we love that picture of the hockey teams. You know filing past each other and shaking hands and also -- the tradition -- nice guys finish last -- being in sports I hope in rugby you have to. The news traditions. -- rugby. Because you were involved in such intense physical combat. -- minutes -- that unless you sort of kind of congratulations to the end and that -- who -- check out this action from the back instinct socialism can get -- to -- roadways -- After the game. You would term you know you wouldn't actually be able to play your game because it would degenerate into simple war Sedaris is -- and in addition to the kind of says exports of these games. Ruled not anybody kind of rules that apply on the playing field that also. Governed by a kind of social rules. Term. In and then. And we're and then this is the interesting thing from Seattle -- used what all this social rules and are -- applicable to society at large. And Internet why is it that sports is more of these great reservoirs. Of -- This -- it's it's the title Jesus Christ to. He is such compared to activities. And yet there's this kind of number removed civility that surrounds practically of the sport."

" There's another element in the James and brand Kasun embrace of cricket just as good game the importance of games James. In beyond about it he says at some point. I believe and hope to prove that cricket and football were the greatest. Cultural influences a nineteenth century Britain. Leading far behind. Tennyson's poems -- these drawings and conscience. But the philharmonic society. He loves games for the sake of games and part of the cult of cricket is simply. That cult of all those sports page things."

" Well I think I think that qualities he's Israeli President was because. If you don't in the guardian website for opening and you'll see the biggest -- victim as popular stories of football's. Com announces and and it -- loan -- an opinion. As happened in the top field play is. And you get 700 Coleman's. People com sports is still a very. Convenient way for people to into into. Discussions -- of of of really portions. Which they would not otherwise have to take having Ian is. -- The question of steroids in baseball. Mean the usual questions of which are role essentially. And listing. -- beyond country. The question -- new warnings wouldn't you know what his true sportsman one -- the values of sports club must must -- what makes. In Rodriguez and it unappealing character. If it -- wind energy issue and repeating and he did people. It opens its opensocial intellectual tools and -- commercial tools. And I think that term he noticed something an arguable about. The degree to exports particularly with men I think the minute I mean almost exclusively with an extremist. That's seizes their imaginations. -- sort of a spirit. So you have to ask yourself and I think he's he's quite right to ask him what is it what is it that's a significant piece. This element its culture. And what and why is it it has not been given it to -- I mean skip an enormous amounts of money it's an enormous amounts of coverage. That rarely. In Enid intellectual circles. Is do people consider rich with a degree of seriousness which for them both chambers differences cricket."

" Yeah we give it time we don't give it. Real important so we don't admit it's important James writes in India to boundaries said that. They who -- intellectual foundations of the western world where the most fanatical players and organizers. Of deems. The world has -- known it is important it's an art ultimately it's tremendous revealer of things we deeply want to know. Richard -- says with great sort of regret that what we've learned in American life since John F Kennedy what television told us was that we -- more interest in football. American football program politics. Job. But in cricket in the commentary on it and certainty that -- James and you. There is still a way of talking about the great players. Lori Constantine or WG grace at all -- the Babe Ruth English. Cricket. And make it seem. Important he said WG grace was the most important figure in nineteenth century England more important and queen Victoria or anybody else. And you almost believe them."

" What I mean I think it's regrettable this in American sporting culture there's such a boundary placed. Between come. Sports. Just sports talk. And and political -- I think you're saying it's it really is really don't mean. That boundary exists. Much -- And I don't remember just recently in the world soccer. Has been a slight -- in. International. Incident. Well tension should -- between Manchester United and Real Madrid drew would it but trying to coach Chris -- annulled it from the united great split it will probably. With one possible exception. And they just succeeded in getting that this week. The term. Manchester United manager Alex Ferguson. Has always say that he essentially. Into the hates. You which it. And -- and -- and -- Barcelona by contrast and the reason that being that he associates from the treated. -- To and the politics. Or faculties. And solaris. Folks and so it's cultural blue cola and working class background. And and -- talk about. Soccer official put it in England is often often in complicated by talk about who -- clubs and two news. Who work which part of society's best senate but -- little rest of it. Where is here army look at someone like Tiger Woods. -- this kind of wondering emblem. -- of American possibility. And eight. Leak leakage between him and the world of corporate sponsorship and the white culture and it seems. Just seems all."

" Nurtured -- and he is. He is. Almost the same as corporate sponsorship and Yemen martyrdom tapes and that and but he doesn't leak at all in two I mean who knows where these. Not a Republican or Democrat what we he doesn't personally which is just as his prerogative but I just think that if you. I mean that he did yeah there are many ways in India."

" In -- to various sporting. Cultural should say in. -- phenomenon. In it like for example this book of of mine has been interpreted a million different ways and that's fine. He did likewise gold was -- and he seems to me or cricket so -- of portals and interpretations. On topple the he's playing well and what he's he's looking at Boldin who's who's having problems with -- linebacker. Does that sort technical discussion which of course is -- and and and -- and and fun. But it's only -- that that's been translation into -- into the wider rooms. All of the all the culture and that's one of the great things actually unchanged chiefs that he takes. He takes the sports and all the dramas. And conflict of sport and Kemp and controls the line between them and -- at essentially the ancient Greeks yes. And and leave and what we learned from that we learned that we then not just about cricket that we obviously learn about the roots of in Aaron. Way of looking at the world."

" So interesting he draws a political meaning. Whereas could you draw political meaning to the rivalry between the Red Sox and yankees. Provinces against the capital people against money or. Couldn't you."

" Well I mean you could that you don't be able to issue about it kinda. I'm no I'm just enough about these. The Yankees and the Red Sox I'm -- that my son is nine years -- going to needle. Told me yesterday that the rich so horrible makes them the land. And I mean this is a kid is Tony -- it -- school. Senior imperialists in general though I -- he's setting -- this issue. And -- Says. I think -- in her own rough week went to the for the Yankees -- eight to nothing so nothing is not -- area. It's steady conclusive result."

" guts to announced his loyalty at this point that well you know I think in. I mean that he doesn't know any better. Come back to the meanings of this game. As sealer games rates them as you write them in the land and."

" Put them into the head who read the mind that. Barack Obama president State's reading this book he says on his night table. To me it's full of meanings. But I'm wondering what you --"

" Well I'm going to Abu a number of -- about this as you can imagine. And congratulations is that they're making the presidential material -- thank you very much well that's the first award is how -- is -- being in the distance between me and Barack Obama's suddenly collapsed. But he is close to this extent. And the second sorties from the for a country. In the second vote is that. -- as a writer I want you will not be to grateful for the blessings. Unity. It's not you want to sort of it as -- Believe in urine. And want you to use. And you know Iowa's grew up thinking that. Prices in particular. Were but the -- one that's trustworthy and is launching a proposed treat human wisdom etc. as any. And therefore it seems to mean time natural -- The politician even if he is present in that stage should -- original goal from time to time and derived axle complex gratification you get from. That it's mind -- or is obviously missiles grapes sanctioned but hey. -- the best more general point absentees and defend. The the artists not personal it's for the -- generally Garcia. You and crash cheat which should he or she should feel in the face power. Com. The other thought I he's in it and return to more threatening to question is you know what he's Obama. In a scene -- he -- and this book and I would want this book connects him and having I think it's presumptuous of me it's as of speculate. Which is stepping back from for a second. If this novel confront -- can read it with the fatigue of Christian. -- that isn't that something which would obviously. Appealed to this precedent. Who use seems to me. Extreme interest in in Indy. In tension between. Oneself and the other. And seized seasons as of -- fruitful tension. Of course not the way if there's any American who couldn't mr. cricket it is Barack Obama. That's an -- that's very that's -- added that in many ways his platform is. As a -- Cassini and platform. Yes. -- it term the current boundaries and -- the game in the reference to James's. Intentional. The current boundaries of American vision. -- have proved. To be. Defective they just have. And the -- is represented. A kind of catastrophic shouldn't teach. The idea of what it means to -- American community is of the of what the world record in the -- the world might be. And Barack Obama who for biographical and intellectual reasons -- I should say and intellectual reasons. He's in position to make an argument. And I think so far he's he's made it looks --"

" That's a wonderful crack -- I a but it -- could go we could go on. It seems to -- Barack Obama is very much a child of this clr James imagination. Trying to think up. What theologians on in cricket which is to say. And apparatus for reconciling. Power and poverty. Black and white. Do the banker world in the starting world. In a framework that is some. That is open that is competitive that is fair this -- chronic. That they didn't embrace that that roots as Sheila James did and he was a champion of all of two -- richer in the Haitian revolution there. But equally of -- make peace factory in that novel Vanity Fair which he virtually memorized. And to be working always in this tension. In a sophisticated tension it's. Reconciling things."

" Well I mean united and we -- want to get to abstruse stuff polls that bit. -- awards -- he is great interest -- it James was. Hagel. And in fact when -- is -- America. He would scribble for these commentaries angle from which he would then sent to Detroit conflict it was when we're going to need mention won't. How they would receive that he had anyway it apparently will receive. That term but again one doesn't lose the -- little too much. Don't that I have -- understanding him. But it. You know -- he was an advocate of the idea of oil and advocate -- so much is a sort of to deploy but the idea. All that he news if you take. The isn't the thesis and antithesis and you come over the synthesis and he thereby create new areas of knowledge and understanding. And Obama is someone who is. Seems to me. Very attracted to this idea of constant synthesis. And this is sort of and it's an -- and because he's so clever. And because he rides it from an idealistic has come starting point. It's not the kind of triangulation. On them so what you're trying to -- political. Opposing political forces also maximized. Your political power. It's that you take I -- launch ideologies that or extensively in conflict and in fact not mean this has been to substantially complete. And you try to bring them together as a twist -- something you're having the most important example for me -- Small wonder if -- Oprah Obama's but president. And he emerges. Tumbled from a point of view from the African American. World but in fact grow -- Obama emerges from a completely different. Which is the world and Africa. And the world Kenya. And says that he. In order to. In pollute quickly school progress for himself he had to mobilize. His African American follows who have -- So who waited to citizens' civil rights artistry so often and at the same time he was able to mobilize. People from outside that community. Because he. He proposed a different model. What it might mean. To be you know black in America. And I was able to bolt and a more than anything else and says hey I think it's. It's it's -- then or provide full right graphical reasons he's he's he's had since she's been a constant state of flux. And he has come to understand. I think that that flux if you've seen if you if you retention about it can actually reproductive. You know. And and James himself to the greatest cuts. And this is sort of and not much -- before with the greatest curse -- of these two point humanity was -- So the insistence. I'm from a possible worlds of cash Verizon limit people. And in the EP loose -- he knows it's the kind of sort of way which. The human beings -- sort of reduced to specialize nations and -- and cash -- He really felt such. Unity you what it was moved into more complicated animal glorious war."

" Joseph -- is it possible. That in nether land you've written the book. For. This age of Obama and that you until -- James together in your different generations. Have found this sort of demon metaphor. For the age of Obama."

" Well that is -- for me to say Africa that is not for me to say I mean not only on the right track here. Well you -- you I didn't I mean it's undoubtedly true that this book to give it to achieve that the connections made its initial vulnerabilities and various. -- Is onto something bizarre list. And that's who I am it feels opulent."

" We feel very -- to read it honestly it's a marvelous book and I thank you for this conversation. You're very welcome news. -- Sure and tell Berman helped us think it through all means read this book neverland. And -- Europe check out -- beyond the boundaries by the late great seat dole. Identity power and history at our site. Radioopensource.org. I'm Christopher -- thank you for joining the conversation."