Title: Alfred Gusenbauer: Euro-Socialism in America

" I'm Christopher lighten this is open source. From the whites and instituted brown university and American conversation we call it. -- global attitude we're trying to see ourselves as others see us in this one. How does a European socialist politicians see the collapse of American premarket capitalism. -- years into the Obama term. The money the politics. The culture. A crisis that the answer is a lot more respect than you or we. Would have expected. Alfred Goosen Barr is a -- fun loving 49 year old professional Paul on the left side of Austria. And European affairs he's been a leader in the socialist international last year and the year before he was Austria's chancellor. -- have a center left coalition he's a fellow with the Watson institute this year happy to begin by saying that public morale. Political direction setting popular trust all feel better here -- over there."

" Just to tell you that -- I was sitting together was under Islamic and she is coming from east trip and and she she asked me do you know what is the difference between. Capitalism and comics so of course I could xmas now it's -- okay once chip. She's that you know in Communist. First. They're going to nationalize everything. And then destroyed. And in capitalism it's the other way."

" Speaking at the other way around he was joking about the Berlin."

" And the -- absolutely everything in Berlin the situation is. Serious but not desperate in Vienna every situation is desperate but not serious. On those terms how would you describe the economic crisis."

" Well. It's. Terrible for. Those that -- fact it. And I see too vulnerable groups. Those debt older than fifteen. We have -- priority of spending for -- qualifications. Teams will not go. Because all the governments will. Prioritize its. Young are. Workers. With the younger labor force for re qualification programs. So. The elderly it will be to a certain extent left. Uses one Hugh problem group. And the second one is the youngsters. Because with these enormous increase. Of unemployment that we are facing right now. Bulldozed into believing nowadays universities. Grammar schools. A technical education schemes whatsoever. They tried to enter the labor market and find clothes stores. And we cannot predict what this might mean. Four there -- social and political behavior I'm only an Austrian look at each year eighth 2000 Texas. And I are going to the labor market. And -- to find close parts. What does it mean if the next two with three years this happens like that and I just want to would call. But what we experienced increased last year with. To -- to students because of their lawsuit from studying qualities that the universities I mean. These. Went quite far in terms of for a public wild lands and in -- sofa. Challenging to state authority. So I think nobody can predict right now which. Social and political effects. As long a duration. Of the crisis might have upon different groups. And this will be the real challenge. For European democracy and for the European welfare state to hold. Both social fabric together in times when it is fundamentally challenge them --"

" I'm looking for alternative ways to see this global economic crisis we're getting used to it but I don't think we begin to understand it yet. Interpretation review I'm especially eager to hear European view. And the socialist take. What's happened and where we're going."

" Well what's happened is quite simple we. We faced one of their biggest bubbles ever in the history of for a capitalism. That's not a first bubble that we were children. And Durham may be some of the policy instruments in the US. Let's to a continuation. And to an increase of two bubble for a long time which should've made it worse. But the main thing behind it is that we have enormous. Economic imbalances in the world. Enormous savings that -- are searching for returns. And on the other hand we have had created some sort of artificial. US for several years that we're. All leading up to Jews and almost bubble that breast right now. And to do result we will see enormous consequences in the real economy. And my perception is that we are not able to continue. As we did before. So the suggestion of -- conservatives let's go through the crisis and when we got through we continual. Where we stop before -- crisis this will be a and therefore our platform some more fundamental. Changes and the world economy. In order to make economic development. Much sustainable. And I think the main difference. Which before has to be. That. Even if conservatives and others to look like to have that. The world. Off to day needs more social justice. And more. Equitable income distribution. To do well no more assistant. With the differences we have there is no chance."

" that you make it's Lou too simple. Do you think we've seen it ought to bring it to a sample I put it away that you could understand it. Well -- I should but have we seen the real consequences of this. Bubble bursting yet. I keep suspecting that we've been and that's baptized by this -- the stock market and the really scrutinizing the banks but that. The short term remedies are gonna run out."

" Well but the thing is that. In real terms with groups of the US is there for several months we will lose. 600000. Troops a month now it's down to 300000 troops from. The prediction for the European Union is for 20092000. Then that. In total we are going to lose between eight and a half million to nine million chops. Which is -- worst. Job destruction. That we half sings the such is often -- century. And it's true that in Europe this is just at the beginning. Because opting out we have a gradual increase of unemployment but it's going -- for months and months so if you'll. If you would say that we are just at the beginning of the real consequences. For real people often you are right. But areas already certain. Estimation tool where it might leaked. Only in job and economic -- nobody can predict nowadays. Two weary with lead politically and socially."

" That's what I want to -- about we keep talking about numbers we don't talk about a cultural change or change your understanding. Of so nervous human situation. Where in. Where is that hate you."

" And my understanding. From what can you face right now is that. Most of those people that are losing -- opera. We'll never got the topic I mean. Because their quarterly Asia and never get a jump again. Because. Only a certain percentage of those that are losing their trump right now. Now will be engaged in retraining programs and other schemes that might offered him. A possibility -- and to Detroit market again when they're around you jobs. But most of the -- chops. And the old qualifications are gone. And different huge. Huge centuries. People over fifty. Losing their chopper right now. Most probably. Might not be able to into the job market again. Which will by the way. Even aggravate. The demographic care. Challenged that we anyhow afternoon at least in Europe nowadays. The second thing is that it. Darius is certain Barack didn't most progress in Europe. Which. Senate that we have a total gross. And since 1945. Things were going better and better. One year after the other created more wealth than. Kits would be better off than their parents parents would be better off than their grandparents. And it seems that. This development. What the spectrum of development. Is breaking right now. Because even in times of boom."

" Growth rates in Europe -- quite modest. Growth was mostly coming from central and Eastern Europe. And now we -- interest crisis. Growth might come back in 200211. 02012. Which will not immediately. Leads to a recovery in the truck market. So did general perception. That things are permanently. Dog to be back to. I think that this part of their growth for progress. Is breaking nowadays in Europe and created. Enormous. Enormous political consequences. Which are expressed by. It's it -- increase in now. Participation in elections. Do you increase of political support for populist and -- nationalist parties. So the entire politico. And social fabric. And that helped. European societies together over decades. Is very much challenge winners. Who --"

" Over to Europe but I want you tell us about the European view in the states you do an awful lot of traveling you bring -- very sophisticated. European mind. What are you seeing in America. We talked about it in the actual consequences. In our understanding of this situation and then. You know and Obama and the congress try to grapple with --"

" I have to say. It the US is stealing much but the with the crisis. And in Europe community yes I think so. And especially you how the government and a precedent that this. Take into country hat. I mean to stimulus package but chips -- tells you clear lesson when west nowadays and infrastructure. In house in education. In green technology. This is the best answer. A government could kids nowadays especially with all due deficiencies. In those sectors you have accumulated in the United States over the years. A Republican grow. And therefore I think that. Oh blocked the US government is doing right now. Compared with all the other is in Europe is the best one could still. And in my understanding that this also affects people positively we that we just talked about it when walking here. In the US people have for certain optimism. That sooner or later you're coming out of two classes. And even if you're on a monthly basis -- losing jobs continuously. People already have to hope in their recovery. And this is very distinct from the European point -- few -- you know already. Fearing. Many people will sustain. All their fierce. Often decline. Before. Let's say and recover it really happens so. In Europe we need at least half a year or a year off to recover. -- people will turn don't mind. In US. There is already a certain optimism. Despite the fact. That the situation. Still does not improve. I wonder -- again it maybe we don't understand the bad news. I think. And -- let up yet. I think it's not a question of 92 it's a question of approach. To truth is. That you have the government in which the people trust. And his and that's very very important. And of course if the first atom positive news. That the job losses. Our continued. But diminishing. And that we do not have 600000 jobs slashed it 300000 jobs less per month. By people is already understood as a good message. And there -- Everybody understands that -- to have that taken by government can change the situation for one day to the other that requires a certain. A certain time to implement them but the fundamental difference is that nowadays. People in Europe. Don't trust the government season and that in the United States people have full trust. And president and exco."

" I wonder is -- new Europe. The integrated economy. The Euro zone and all that even capable. But dealing emotionally politically socially. -- these hard times and in what we read about is. Polish immigrants in Ireland and elsewhere in Eastern Europe going home. And national governments taking protective. Very local. Measures. Put their own -- This was not. The idea. Pre immigration zone and a and one Europe what's the danger here who what's the news."

" I think that. It's not the bad news that the polish people on the island. Because I think to. The economic recovery. In central and Eastern Europe will start soon and be strong. Dan in Western Europe. And for these purposes of all those countries. Terribly -- of people. And anyhow I think it's it's a waste of four talents and and and a waste of excellence. If there polish university graduates and working as taxi drivers in Dublin. When you so terribly neat that talent at all. And then those plumbers back. In yes I think I think you need those promised back in in Warsaw and and I think that's not that's not the bad news that many of those going back into their countries where they're terribly -- The bad news is due to -- the protectionist. Attitude behind it so to say. We want us to save our country and we do not care about foreign minister triumph. So much contributed to do wealth. For instance in Arlington this is this is -- terrible attitude. Which and a long run can create political difficulties with in Europe. But the economic fact. The people I've gone back to Romania Poland Bulgaria. This is a good element because we wrote for instance an Austrian -- kind of separate that very clear I mean we are already oops I mean. And a lack of four. Of manpower and some qualifications in west on how accurate. We didn't find the people there. In western Hungary. To working all the businesses that were established that I mean it they they already had to recruit Austrians. To west and accurate. Because there was such a -- month. For labor and therefore I think it's not a bad idea. That some of the most qualified Beckham back."

" At the big picture level still confused. As to what we're learning about Europe. There was sort of expectation that when. The comeuppance team after Iraq. That Europe. You rove specifically would. Committed result. Overall who's gaining or losing. In this sort of underground competition between the European model. And the American. It."

" First awful Euro Lewis. And incredibly. Stabilizing factor with the debt crisis and do not want to imagine. Happening off -- debt crisis with all the different to currencies are still there in Europe this would have flex two. Took alliances Indian national markets tax credit and to. What we just look back to the beginning of the nineties when we -- that the crisis of the Congo and it. And Swedish krona which would -- to. And you would imagine what happened to them. -- should happen to all the current system -- now pocket to Europe so this would have made to disaster even books. Is set question is who won't come out of this crisis Spector do you American or European model first of fall. We hopes. A certain switch. Of the American talks to European. And second the European model. Fundamentally it's okay but it needs a lot of renovation. Because the -- feature of two welfare states. Hats. Coming to a cheese. And have a first date that is so much dedicated to pensions. It is so much dedicated to do redistribution. Among the middle classes sent off to society. And which is not able to address the -- issue of increasing number of poll. Which is not able to address the question of the generational. Distribution of wealth. -- welfare states. By all means is under enormous. Enormous pressure and therefore I think that Europe nowadays is on the cross reports. And it's on a double cross from the water is. Are we able to -- the way it. I'll welfare states. In order to make it. Feasible also for the new challenges that would have been with or without crisis. And the second crossroads is. -- we're following the European model or are we breaking apart. And going back to -- nationalist. History. And tendencies. When you followed the improvement. Some of their very rightwing nationalist parties in European elections. There is an increasing number of the population and almost all the member states who are advocating. -- nationalist. Less European attitude. And in my understanding we are coming to every variability. Crucial moment where either Europe is able. To move forward. With enlargement with the political integration with the implementation. Of to list them treat -- and making Europe more political. -- Those tendencies are on the nationalist side. Object in either strong -- will be appeased by the mainstream politics. And by that do you sold the idea of the European craft."

" That's the European versus nationalist. Dimension part about the capitalist. Socialist dimension. The left right broadly. -- specifically the responsibility for the economy. Managing it and the largest social interest."

" Well what -- surfaced that nowadays all the center right parties in Europe moving to the left. There trying to embrace the social Democrat agenda. They are quite successful in doing so. At least what concerns Taylor electoral. With the example there. If you look to. Determine Christian Democrats for instance some -- I'm get a -- today. And the regular American in the electoral campaign for years ago yes. That's all the way from you liberalism. To social democracy and so I think they have understood that where if that. An ardent neo liberal program you'll note -- to win and the electoral support -- And with the move foot descent to Iraq -- Regard to the left of course it makes it more difficult for social Democrats to. Pretty whale in elections like the ones we had their last sent it. On European level but the tendency. In Europe is clear. Europe nowadays is moving into the direction of more states. More social balance. More involvement. Off trade unions. And labor movement. And it's moving away from the new little erratic and that was prevailing -- twenty years. Come."

" the big imbalances I want to dispel them out very literally when I think is the imbalances this whole crisis revealed I think first of all of just the the difference between Americans as consumers and Chinese as makers. But there's also this huge imbalances hasn't had not. And poor starving people who who are still starting maybe even more so. What are they imbalances. You're talking about and then how do you imagine. Bridging those two."

" I'm talking but both types of ambulances. That want to say the idea depressants. Imbalance between. Dose that's -- the current account deficit. And -- attacked the current accounts so awesome so as you mentioned. The Americans that huge consumers and -- Chinese huge reduces. But the Chinese and the only ones do you export champions of two world is still the Germans with. And current account surplus of 10% of their GDP. Is -- And it's literally determines its -- of the Austrians and several others. And in the category of to -- most might be. And the United States and in Europe for instance. -- or Spain you know. Countries with rather low productivity growth of your economy. High consumption higher current account deficit. And this is a picture that is present only around the world and as long. As we are not going to export our goods to give him. Wherever there is surplus on the other hand there has to be deficit that's that's quite obvious. The second time mention after imbalances. Is of course the imbalance between. The."

" Poor. And rich. Beat within the country's -- of the global level. And again to Salem. The same parameter plots. If you're that terribly rich jewel for sure. I didn't -- If you're you -- is already 350. Feet long what is the next election. That you ought to -- topic for 2000 feet I don't want what you're going to spend all your blood money. You will not be able to spend. So you will. Put it into Tucson national markets as some sort of capital and savings that only works if -- them. But what we're talking about is very -- official time of Cuba. We're on the other hand you have millions and millions and millions of people which I'm satisfied needs for food and -- and living in houses and whatsoever. So that they're more sustains. Do you months structure. Which would create a more sustained economic development. Can only happen if Darius -- Equitable. Income distribution. Because it's Benedict. Also in Europe. To -- spent now one Euro."

" In this saturated economists. Germany France Austria what's that about. Is creating a much lesser effect than spending Euro in Hungary or Romania Bulgaria what's gotten. And therefore. Within Europe I think it's very clear our hope is in the east. Because from there the demand will come from their. DD dynamics. For the future economic development will -- and we are free to decide. Are we going to support such that the well equipment with a clear. Re distribution of resources that we have in Europe go to the east. Well if we don't support -- And I would say Ichiro. Now -- days spent in Romania or Bulgaria or European money. Is it -- to -- Europe than in Sweden Denmark or to set -- it to congress to west. --"

" Cool experienced politician could use sell. That idea of investing in half and Europe. In an Austrian farm. I think -- quantities kind of mean."

" I think that one consultant. And say listen. What is our problem. Our problem is that we -- losing now market. If we are not selling Cox. You're going to lose your job. So we have to sell our costs. We meet people that are ready to buy our cars. Where are the best. Most regulate it. Based on rule of small markets in -- of this in -- It's -- U member states of the European Union. And therefore I tell you it's much better to spend one Euro in Romania. Then to spend euros in Austria. Because the Euro spend in Austria will directly go into the savings rate and not in leaning -- have to sales of cars."

" When -- first that you wrote the time of the Obama inauguration I thought your push and push of events would be to lower consumption. In the United States to pull back to acknowledge -- kind of depression rather than to pump up. Demand we seem to be back in the keep it going mode."

" Now we -- not. What these increased nowadays it's not fraud -- Which means the proper conception. But listen what is increased. In your -- to public to. So if the government is. Putting money into infrastructure. Health or education. Or green technologies. This is -- public to -- this doesn't mean increased Consumer Spending. And this is why I think that Europeans should not wait. To the recovering yes -- traditional packet loss and win the US economy is going to pick up. While solar light -- the way for coming to Europe and we have safe to. I think in due time it will be different because. Dementia that that taken by the US government not stimulate and -- its two month there are stimulus for the public to. And as these is not a stimulus for private -- and it will not necessarily. Increase immediately to private consumption. It will not necessarily. Increase. The American -- for products from Europe. And if it what increase. Did you marked for additional groups. Dan still there will be to competition between the Chinese and Europeans who is they're too good to supply. And therefore them do you rules. Myth. That if US is speaking out so our little -- to Europe will come back to. Will not function this time."

" I'm fascinated with -- socialist. Mind like yours observes about the response is these days in. Famously anti socialist. America. We certainly talk the anti socialist scheme how different. Are. The responses here actually. I think."

" The problem of two US is the so called anti socialist paranoia. So as long as you told not called it socialist. You can do whatever you want. Is reminds me off of the old Austin thing. As long as you pull our security concept neutrality you can do what you want to that at that at its -- Question neutrality you'll come into deep difficulties and as soon as you would cheering US. Call us open policy socialist policy. Then you work to Europe and to difficulties. But in substance. But is not a day is done. AN US is good European social Democrat anti crisis policy."

" and you're spending your hanging out in the United States nowadays in a very very. Peculiar time in my experience how do you find us -- going to be so. -- student how others see us. How we doing."

" Well I think quite scars. Agree here. And then a I think that what I can serve. Is that the Americans dealing quite well -- the crisis. I'd have to hope that things are going back to the ride to make their way through will. All of it private initiative state can undertake in order to. The to a halt and twosome my friends. I do. At least here. In the east coast. To not field that psychological. Depression."

" But quite the contrary. That people. -- impression. We are able to go through it."

" How do you see -- moving. Toward a cultural. Change year around the redefinition of our economic system."

" I tend not to remove a message -- cultural change already in your ass. The cultural change in US. He's going much more slowly. Because I think most of two pupils. Still. Have to impression. We can get out of it is crisis on well. Mean Canada and the region by region yes us as a country yes."

" What would you tell them."

" To a certain extent to Iraq's. There -- not a right to in general but they might be -- for the United States. Because. There is still an enormous potential. In the country. There is an enormous potential. To create. Some sort of domestic -- month. It's still the biggest economy. In new world which has all the possibilities. Than others. And what -- troops not underestimate. It's a consumer. I'm not an export to countries. And therefore finding itself on the different sides then for instance Europe."

" I have to ask Cuba President Obama. But as an Austrian politicians see. Yeah and his men his ratings are so favorable that people now have to explain no he's not god. But he's he's been remarkable but what -- you see. --"

" We just talked to -- to -- want to hear when shouldn't underestimate what did -- Named among politicians. That are a well mobile on the world -- moment. He is. Depressed at UK to one the user. Public law schools caller you answer the highest academic qualifications. In addition he has sir what our hearts and -- job in his sir Kerio wrestler politician. And he is bringing more personal. Expertise. More personal. Added well you came to the -- then most of all the other politicians. Around the world and -- He's coming at the time. Which is tremendously bad format. And where the desire for change. Is so. -- also in the United States. And -- will -- his terrorists and Iran with its intellectual outfit. Is able to address disks. Desire for change. And if you listened to his. Speech in the university of Cairo for instance addressing the Muslim world. From who. Else. On the slope. Would you expect. -- That -- to -- scary time to mention anybody else playing his rule. It's better to have one to -- that -- and --"

" produced by -- it's a pleasure. And we're gonna have this conversation again and again and again. Thank you very much."

" Paul McCarthy produced and edited this conversation with Austria's once and maybe future chancellor. Alfred -- our interns and Olson and -- until -- of this in and out of dissection. Put your own measure of east and west and how we're doing that are website. Radio open source dart board. I'm Christian -- and thank you for joining in the country."