Title: Here and Now for Monday, August 24, 2009

" Here now is a production of WBUR Boston in association with the BBC world service and PRI."

" I'm Robin Young it's here and now as President Obama settles into his Martha's Vineyard vacation. There's a flurry of news today about how his administration might deal with terrorism suspects. Later today the CIA is expected to release at 2004 report. Detailing the brutal treatment of suspects during bush -- CIA interrogations. Including confirmation of -- story that at least one detainee was threatened with a gun and a power drill. Well today an aide says Obama has approved the creation of a new government unit to interrogate suspects. And the Justice Department is recommending that attorney general Eric Holder re opened an investigation into prisoner abuse cases. -- in the White House today said would be solely up to holder mark the city's national security correspondent the New York Times -- there -- tell us more about these cases."

" There had been a number of about two dozen cases over the years that the CIA inspector general referred to the justice department for prosecution. During the Bush Administration. Justice Department declined to prosecute and these works not political prosecutors -- look at these but really career prosecutors in the eastern district -- for the Virginia. What my colleague David Johnson reported today is that there's a ethics office in the Justice Department and as we looked. And it note advising attorney general holder to re look at those cases and other open them up again. And see whether there's enough evidence to prosecute."

" Well. And what does all of this being President Obama has said he doesn't want to pursue prosecution of bush era officials and potential abuse interrogations. What does this mean if attorney general Eric Holder is considering reopening."

" It creates some tensions certainly. Eric Holder has said do you know regardless of what the White House want to do my job as the nation's top. Law enforcement officials to investigate wrongdoing where it happens that President Obama did leave the door open its. To go after CIA interrogators who went beyond official Justice Department guidelines."

" Well and you've already reported. On the use of a power tool and a gun in interrogations were expected to hear more about that later today. Would that be illegal and that go beyond the rules."

" Yes we believe they they did earlier this year the Justice Department memos. I came out that sort of laid out exactly what the technique the approved techniques work those were not part of -- approved techniques. So presumably because they were done beyond those techniques certainly would leave open the possibility that -- that could be investigated but just parts."

" How far does it go out does the actual interrogators say. But I thought that I was given permission to do that by bush officials."

" Well this is where it gets. Scary. I think Dicey credit for the about administration they certainly want to keep any future prosecution in a very narrow box. However if you're a defense attorney of someone who they investigate they'd no doubt will try to push responsibility up the chain of command. As we know. These interrogation -- interrogations were true to the highest level including. President Bush Vice President Cheney there's a lot of paper they say memos going back and forth approving this stuff so. It does seem hard. For the Justice Department to keep -- it. It in the new aero. Box of only interrogators who went beyond approved message it would seem that it might it might expand beyond --"

" And what about going forward the report said President Obama has approved a new high value detainee interrogation group. Which will be known by the acronym pig. Which will take over interrogations from the CIA. Official has a CA feel about that and what more do we know about that group."

" Well I mean -- they've certainly been hinting at this for some time that they would be -- having any class of government interrogators not just FBI interrogators -- CIA interrogators. But -- one uniform standard. By the CIA. But relative to purposes kind of did out of the interrogation business for numbered years we don't believe there's any high value detainees currently in the CIA custody and so we got the sense of from the Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair differences earlier this year but instead the best thing to do would be to take. -- learned by the CIA by the FBI by the military and create in train a group of interrogators. Who follow -- worst of interrogation guidelines. But also will get the experience and and take it out at just one agency."

" and and worrying some reports that the CIA might actually. Be relieved. And to be relieved of of that job. But tell us more about -- we understand they rely only on the army field manual what does that mean as far as what they might be able to do interrogations."

" Well the army field manual is right now what the military uses for its interrogations and it is a very. Limited. Slate of interrogation methods disk would then become the standard for all government interrogations. As -- go to the Bush Administration. There was a cargo to the CIA to do more coercive interrogation methods because the belief was that I doubt these detainees. It it was neat about high value detainees that they trained against the army field manual and so therefore would not give out information. Now it's being reported that stepped in new class of government interrogators would rely solely on the army field it."

" Which could mean for instance and waterboarding has been banned but. What else -- mile."

" Sleep deprivation in the audience forced nudity. Manipulation of diet that I don't think."

" That's -- the city national security correspondent for the -- time's mark thank you so much much."

" before there was Wal-Mart. There was Ames department store now if you live in say rural Pennsylvania you know this change. That brought discount retailing to rural areas -- Ames was the fourth largest US retailer in the eighties. Today it's out of business. -- not AMP it was -- grocery chain on New York's Long Island in. 10000 stores in the mid fifties. And outsold its nearest rival by one billion dollars. Today EP has just 500 stores. What led to the downfall of these and other once great companies have to question worth asking in today's economic climate. And management expert Jim Collins does as the crescent in his new book how the mighty fall Jim Collins. Much to claimed earlier books built to last and good to great we're about how good companies become great today. That's not son how they collapsed. In joins us from KG and public radio in his hometown of Boulder, Colorado to welcome."

" Very pleased to be here with you -- and we understand it of the timing of your book which seem to be serendipity is but you started a long time ago looking at this infect your wife. And she was going to a bout with breast cancer no I'm sure your first thoughts who -- about a business analogy. And we're glad to hear that she's made it through. But gradually you start to see what second here's this person your wife who looked spectacular on the outside. And what had a disease onions."

" I realized in retrospect that at the very moment that she looked the picture of health. She must have already been -- And that's when the whole thing kind of came gather of you may be really any kind of decline. Has the seeds inside even though on the -- side. You look the picture of health and and that translated over to what may be some of the great companies and great enterprises that have fallen. Maybe they looked at pictures of help but they were already -- tell us about which use as the five stages. Of decline first of all I wanna be very clear about the really scary part of this. You don't look. To everybody else like you're sick like you're falling until stage for so you go through the first three stages in fact. Almost appearing to others that -- very height of the strength and power and greatness and yet. That's silent creep of impending doom your right on the edge of it in your about to go over -- that's what truly scary. So stage one is hubris born of success and this is when you were very success. Lead you to become arrogant about your success and to ultimately. Lose sight of the real. Factors that brought you success in the first place and additional you begin to feel that your success is deserved rather than accepting the fact that you might have been. More lucky than good and so therefore you always need to beat that somewhat erratic paranoid to make yourself stronger for the -- your luck might right now."

" Let's get a quick example that -- gift of a stage one Motorola. Which developed start tech phone in 95 that had analog technology. Wireless carriers were all going digital Motorola instead of seeing that train leaving the station stayed with the start --"

" Motorola was truly one of the greatest enterprises of the twentieth century and as it became more and more successful. It began to it displayed those elements. Of arrogant of me if you think about what hubris is right it's outrageous arrogance. That inflict suffering upon innocents to quote jay -- spears who's a classics professor. Of course and that can you lead you to discount information well. But nobody wouldn't want our products for example another form of arrogance that shows up is when you begin to inflict arrogant -- you think that you can. Turn your attention to exciting new adventures perhaps if you're -- perhaps because you were looking for some kind of new arena of growth and you turned your back on what made you successful in the first place and that was the story of Circuit City. It inflicted arrogant neglect upon its Circuit City superstores and what -- turned back to try to renew them they'd been clobbered by two words that's -- Well so that stage one stage to undisciplined pursuit of more yes. You would think that what happens when two great enterprise is that you become. Complacent you become fat you become lazy become -- want to just kind of lay around and and do nothing new lower interest staying in the world just passes you by and you never change never innovate anymore while. In fact. We didn't find that this is how the mighty fall that may be the way mediocre enterprises fall but -- the great ones fall it's over reaching. It's going too far too much growth too much innovation too much aggression too much going. For that big bet for the gigantic leap out into the future that is -- calibrated. And -- for example. If you look at a case of a company like Rubbermaid they were introducing new product every single day 365. Days a year. Well seeking to -- new categories every twelve to eighteen months I don't described that as complacency. And yet they. Now think about everything just happened in the whole financial crisis that we went through which isn't always said because it hadn't happened we started our search. But to be very hard to argue. That we got into it because of a lack of financial aggression are a lack of financial innovation it was in fact going too much risk too much aggression."

" Let's the next stage denial of risk and Carol now you give a couple of examples of how. In an out of business people asked the wrong question what are examples isn't terrible but instructive story of mountain climbers who on the side of the mountain and instead of asking what's the worst thing that could happen if we -- said what's the best thing that could happen if we stay you know we get to finish -- And one of the climbers was what struck by lightning."

" That's right the example they -- there has to do with the aspect of what we would call a symmetric -- which basically means that's what's the upside. If were right. What's the downside if we bet and wrong. Now and in some cases. They play up each other -- even if things go wrong you're still gonna be fine but in the case of the climbers this big thunderstorm. Looks like it was going to be rolling into the canyon now think about these questions. Let's see upside. If we go to the top today began working on the top of the climb while the upside is we've spent some time working on the climate little accelerate -- the next time we come may we complete our planned outing for the day there -- some -- what's the site. When you see that evidence growing you see the -- coming. You see the storm gathering and what happens if it turns into a full fledged lightning storm and it's the top of the pinnacle there the consequence can be catastrophic. And that's exactly what happened the lightning bolt struck the gear melted that climbers died one of the climbers died. And any time you have this kind of denial of -- denial of brutal facts denial of evidence and in order sometimes the real key is. It's really how you entropy can interpret evidence that either positive or negative and what we found and I know what's not necessarily healthy response to the world. But it is the productive paranoid to do well in a scary world it's the ones who look at a piece of data and they say. Well we can see that is positive or we could see that is negative let's assume if we don't know otherwise that it's negative. This act according."

" Jim Collins author of how the mighty fall five stages of decline when we come back the final two stages. Also later small business of programs for novice pharmacist putting food on their table but also some pretty exotic fare in the market. And he had pumpkin greens. That's later but we'll be back eminently Jim Collins here in --"

" Funding for here and now comes from the math works creators of -- lab and simulate technical computing software. Dedicated to accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science worldwide. On the web at math works dot com."

" Welcome back to our topic Jim Collins author of how the mighty fall he says he's identified five stages of decline in business we spoke about the first three. Hubris born of success undisciplined pursuit of more. And denial of risk and -- now -- to stage for grasping. For salvation through desperation. Jim use the first three stages result in stage four."

" Stages 12 and three accumulate. Hubris born of success -- pursued more denial of risk -- but you're still looking okay and then all of a sudden it all catches up and boom. You are falling and everybody knows are falling and you know your fall. And the question is how do you respond do you respond by going back to a very disciplined methodical approach that made -- great in the first place. Or do you respond by grasping for salvation and it's -- you react by grasping for salvation which can be. We need to -- saving acquisition we need a breakthrough technology is gonna fix everything tomorrow we need. The charismatic. Heroic visionary leader who's going to come in and point the way and save us any of these versions of a silver bullet. Are grasping for salvation. Bring in outside people bringing in big names CEOs miracle workers and the point that it's really care. That someone from outside -- company's saves the company absolutely. In this study those who went for outsiders usually performance worsened when they did so and of companies often get themselves out of trouble -- with insiders now going to be very clear. This doesn't mean that an outsider can't succeed. I think we just though very briefly talk about an insider that to me as one of the great heroes of American business in the last -- decade -- and Mulcahy of Xerox. -- was in stage four Xerox -- in and tremendous trouble their stock had plummeted. They were facing an investigation. They were losing market share. At the time that she was announced nobody knew who she was and she was the antithesis of the hero who rides in from the outside right. She was the one who came from the inside when everybody said you have to you have to beat the country in its -- this culture to save it she said. I -- the culture. And if you think any to smash the culture and smashed the people you have the wrong person. And she built -- systematically from their engage Xerox sold that. Which she did just gives a quick -- well the first thing she did was to it to look at it and say it's not about me. And that's one of the things of the greatest leaders we've studied understand and was very much in it for Xerox for second she looked around and she said. I need to make sure that I put in place in my key seats the right people we found the very best leaders they say. No I don't know we should drive this -- I'm not brilliant enough to know the answer that question. So I first have to get the right people on the bus the right people on the key seat and then as a group we will figure out where to drive it the third thing she did. Was she stripped everything -- so we're not going to be in denial anymore. What are the brutal facts and what year -- And it's something that actually comes from good to great but boy it would apply in stage four and it's called the stock -- paradox. And it comes from Jim Stockdale. Highest ranking military officer in Hanoi Hilton and Vietnam. 67 to 74 tortured over twenty times when I asked admiral Stockdale who didn't make it out as strong as you. And he said oh that's easy it was the optimists. I faith and in acting the optimists they were always the ones who said we're going to be up by Christmas. And Christmas would come -- Christmas would -- That would come and would go again. And they died of a broken heart is blind optimism. It was the opposite of what Stockdale said when he grabbed me by the shoulders and things that you must never ever confuse. Unwavering faith that you'll find a way out within need to confront the most brutal facts were on that year by Christmas. That's what ended it zero -- said I have unwavering faith we will not capitulate we will not give up. We will find a way out of this but the only way is we have to accept or not going to be out here by Christmas and we have a ton of brutal facts. And that's what these leaders do is they put those two things together and so very stoic. Yet deeply faithful approach."

" Well Jim Collins other how the money follow a couple less questions for you for -- to become the issue profiled in your book good to great. Have to face catastrophe Circuit City is out of business Fannie Mae saved by the federal government. Where you draw about them."

" No and I think that's what makes it even more scary they were great and they fell. And that's what's so absolutely terrified if they can fall its zenith come fall if Ian peak and fall. Then anyone come fall we are all potentially vulnerable. And I come away with very sobered. And and I think I will always be apparent right."

" On the other hand. As you write about these companies and Merck the drug company Hewlett-Packard. These companies that you point out had been founded on missions in Merck's case for instance mission to help people be healthy in fact I think that's the founders reserve and improve him like bright and it's not about making money. And in each case just about every case new leaders abandon that mission. And -- only to growth. We know that you're -- passionately but this is people in business schools. And I this question is why do you need a book to tell people don't be -- Heck -- don't think -- even have a mission other then make money and be big."

" Well you know I I guess this is a great -- question for us to -- and on because despite the dark journal I come away deeply hopeful because of one we found that slows you go to stage only go to stage for equal come back. And the truly great people like George marked the second he deeply believed medicine is for the patient David Packard HP deeply believed in building a culture. That would make technical contributions it would make the world work better. A Motorola's founder Robert Galvin believed in the incredible power of human creativity in human renewal. Walt Disney wanted very much to to bring happiness to millions of people and yes you can be successful without having a purpose beyond just making money. But the truly great ones always. Understand. That money and profits and growth. Follow. From having a purpose that is much larger than that. And a set of values that they adhere to. And to me what I see is this young generation of leaders coming. And my own view is I'm deeply hopeful because I think there they are people who want to do. Much more than be successful they want to build companies they want to build enterprises. That ultimately become movements that ultimately make a much bigger difference than hale was here and made a lot of money."

" That's Jim Collins author of how the mighty fall now near times top ten business books list Jim thanks so much for speaking enough thank you. And a quick note tomorrow on here now Newsweek calls him Obama's Nobel headache. Liberal economist Paul Krugman also of the children diagnosed with autism in the eighties are now adults a major hospital has started a program just for them that's tomorrow. We'll be back after the latest news here now."

" Support for here and now comes from the listeners of WBUR Boston where the program is produced. Hinckley Allen and Snyder were partners have been giving clients practical legal advice. For over a hundred years to around new England and now including Connecticut online it has -- dot com. And the Institute of Contemporary Art on Boston's waterfront presenting the work of a diverse range of contemporary artists performers and more. Ice CA Boston dot org."

" If you wanna take advantage of the government's popular cash for congress program the doors on the deal closed at 8 PM eastern time tonight this means. The rebate paperwork on the purchase of a new more fuel efficient vehicle one that averages under eighteen miles a gallon. Has to be submitted by then -- as a New York Times had a very helpful. QNA about the end of the programs that we asked Mickey did join us from Detroit and -- first of bullets underscore the deadline is 8 PM east coast time so what does that mean for the west."

" That's right -- so 5 PM California time and it has everything we've of that time zones in which."

" Writes a note that less time out west. Let's the next big big thing you want potential car buyers to know."

" One thing people better now is that a lot of dealers to stop participating already said they need to check with the dealers where they want to shop. To make sure that they are still taking part."

" And and what is. The car that you want let's say you're you're happy you're ready to make the purchase is the purchase has to be made everything has to be signed in the -- and costs and the I's dotted by eight. So or east coast time but what if you -- that -- car isn't there."

" Well that the program was amended to allow people to apply that cash for clunkers rebate card that they order. You know may take awhile for the Arctic has been for example. One of the most popular cars this dictator print and mail it a couple of days worth of inventory and that nationwide. If you want something -- willing to ordering it they will allow you to apply for the region."

" And K let's get to some of the sticky questions and things people worry about you have to qualify office. But whose responsibility is that qualification other words if you go to the deal you give the -- the information you think you've bought the car. Can you and then be later rejected for the rebate."

" Well in fact most applications -- this rejected in the first couple of weeks of the deal. Percent of product safety said that at up to 80% of the applications are being. The -- that there's until they hit it ultimately on the dealer can make sure that all laid either candidate Peter -- it. You could help them biggest first to -- need to have valid insurance in the number of states. You need to have obviously the registration for the clunker at -- hurting and so if you could come to the dealership with all that paperwork and have that will help quite --"

" And you give even more information. Make sure you're having outstanding traffic tickets no liens on your car that could get your application kicked back. But what -- the dealer has made a mistake. -- through when in fact your car you really aren't. Qualified for this I guess the question still is can you down the road be told by the dealer you'll homey 4500 dollars and."

" BE can be after the money back an infected since then has just I don't have a lot of discussion with my readers said the New York Times about. It okay dealer legally ask you for example to reimburse them if the -- as it goes through. The dealer can certainly ask you had some dealers are asking people to find contingency agreement upfront. So if you are given one consumer advocates -- saying. Don't find them dealers and say hey you look -- that this is a lot of our time and effort and money. And we really don't think we can make a deal with you that much you're willing to put up the cash. Give it back to -- the chaos."

" And again if you don't sign -- thing you're saying consumer advocates recommend that you don't. And you think everything square and you often anything everything right that somehow you'd get kicked back and the dealer as you said does -- For that rebate back. Are you do legally have to give it to."

" But you have to make sure wasn't saying that your car is in storage at the dealership said. It is the card have to be destroyed essentially they've they're pouring from the right nuts and bolts in the -- unions. To ease the tensions that these cards cannot be drivable and make sure that you insisted until you hear back -- it has gone well. That your -- these credit storage -- dealers may not like to do that and you can't blame them because. This is that a very popular program I have a lot of cars start to add is that but to protect yourself the most. You know obviously these you really have to look out but it could be vigilant."

" The is it -- he -- obviously want a better car that's what you're trading your clunker in for. Mickey Maynard just in trouble seconds we have. So far this this thing seems to have been complicated messy maybe but buffalo for the car industry."

" I was 625000. Deals -- it's point 58 billion dollars. And it brought traffic back additional rooms that were literally dead during the."

" Sneaking into the New York Times you until you -- east coast time tonight Mickey thanks so much tighter."

" The historical hotbed of America's industrial revolution Lowell Massachusetts. Seems an unlikely place to launch a social experiment in agriculture but today in this city is teaming with recent immigrants from Africa Latin America and South -- Who hunger not only for a leg up economically but also for a taste of food from their homeland. The new -- sustainable farming project is -- dozens of urban immigrants into growing organic crops for the market and for their own tables. Producer Chris Burrell has -- story from the farm field outside little."

" Under the heat of a midafternoon sun. See on bond and green for swings at the not to crabgrass and threatened her for Rosa peppers pumpkins."

" And we it is just that we -- added another half we -- about -- this thing it's sweet it's."

" Just reads the 53 year old from Cameroon will complain that you just work an eight hour shift. She's a nursing assistant and -- home for elderly. But as tired -- she is the payoff is vital it feels her family's place."

" And if -- may have brought -- with my needs is flew out of us if it's victim to lose so that's -- feel a copy. When have been looted -- tables laden who quote on the everybody of the sits on. Because people go to plan will not happen much but if it's not if -- month. We'll get enough."

" Almost all the farmers here are poor and arrive with a range of agricultural skills. The new entry project run by Tufts University. Gives them a three year running start. With land to cultivate. Subsidized use of equipment and free training."

" Bottom line is plant diseases are flying through if you. And it. So Howard diseases spread. That's McKenzie book called the projects on site tag expert. A former peace corps volunteer in Zambia McKenzie says that when it comes to food immigrants face a whole new world and America. The folks are coming to us from. Southeast Asia and different parts of Africa -- used to having food come from. Fifteen kilometers. From where it where they're living things. The huge contrast and coming to America and not knowing where your food comes from is a pretty big thing."

" Raised dangle over -- Mac her roots his forehead. As a right hand sweeps low relief he pumped in dreams. He won't find pumpkin greens at the local supermarket. But Zimbabwean like -- yearn for this vegetable. -- delicious fruit at me and kicked it -- so that's tight end. Nutrition ranks high on -- list of reasons for becoming a farmer. She was a middle school teacher in Zimbabwe before she fled the political turmoil nine years ago. She now works the night shift as a practical nurse intends to or four acres and -- off."

" In black rubber boots."

" Decorated with white peace signs she strides from for rose to the outdoor wash basin with a certain gusto."

" I -- equipment seven and won't take requests. -- traditional street. Hopefully. That's the life -- forfeited."

" Being anything manual you do need to be in the family more than -- until. But farming may soon to plant -- nursing job. She was just given three additional acres of land from a nearby church. In exchange to get 8% for crops to homeless shelter. Her goal to run her own community supported farm."

" Estimate became and and it's going to provide. Yeah fifth. If it is immediately letting go to delay it means. And -- between the customers can come and he kidnapped I didn't want to doing. She's already given her pharma name one with roots in her homeland. It's -- I'm losing its namely that means. Being at home. Quiet it's fresh air -- growing green and so forth you know. So I can -- obvious itself and -- the -- to come from Pennsylvania -- in the not a ball well. It blew a lot of tax stops now it's eight EA can have a statement it has us defeating that I want. Yeah."

" Fiona bond and -- for knows that desire for home away from home. Two till the soil and scrape away we -- she uses a special tool she brought all the way from her native Cameron."

" When 88 was coming home I put it in my math -- my clothes. Food."

" It's with a had been by that broad variety live from I'm."

" Oh yeah. And and it."

" Under recent Saturday at a roadside farmer's market. Fiona makes a memory come alive or customer named Maine if who has an immigrant from Sierra Leone. "

" It happens with a vegetable most Africans know well and leafy green called Cameron. I'm gonna makes you. He did Venus do you think that."

" Dealing with -- suddenly shrink to thousands of miles that separate -- from freaked out there are smiles on both sides of this farm stand. -- witnesses the same event the cultural chord that resonates -- people from far away see the food she grows great here."

" Opinions please know we keep fought treason I don't know I don't come from -- it wouldn't isolate their offspring that cleaning them well."

" I'm -- think it. From the -- when it comes UPS. -- surprised this I have been. Right not I have to leave them to signal that content collecting dozens that was we need to give other people you know. It's really easy riding just just to bring memories of people. We'll."

" Indices like chilling photos of the new -- sustainable farming project inaction go to our website cure now dot org our story was reported by Chris Burrell. War."

" And some news notes were following hurricane bill has moved into the North Atlantic after churning waves that caused two deaths here on the east coast. A 54 year old man died while swimming in Central Florida. And yesterday a seven year old girl in Maine was killed after she her father and another girl -- was swept into the water and Acadia national -- 10000 people had gathered to watch the waves crashed into a -- is known as a under a whole. Today NASA is putting the finishing touches on an early morning flight to space shuttle discovery that scheduled to blast off tomorrow with a full load of supplies including an treadmill named after TV comedians Steve and -- there. And Alec Baldwin is taking on senator Joe Lieberman Baldwin 30 Rock angels Playboy. He's considering running for the Senate seat held by Lieberman the senator responded on CNN yesterday."

" You know make my day I mean. But I must say that I suspect fell over and has an actor and as it can -- you -- and you wants -- is right yeah."

" Joe Lieberman's -- comes up for reelection and you're listening here now."

" Support for here and now comes in part from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve the chance to live a healthy productive life. Information gates foundation dot org."

" Welcome back -- now remember the wicked witch of the west. --"

" There she goes melting away in the 1939 film version of L frank bombs wonder who was revised. But other Gregory Maguire could let it go at that he wanted to know how did the green which get to -- section. Which. In wicked -- Meyer's first book in the series of fairy tales from -- he concludes. It was the discrimination she suffered apparently it was easy being green for half of the restaurant and in reaction to the persecution she saw. She became a passionate animal rights advocate freeing a caged lion cub during the college science lab. Only to later be accused of robbing -- line of his current. Her stuck up college roommate went on to become -- the good which an alpha though it was forever tarred as the wicked witch of the west. Quicken of course became a Broadway hit as well Al -- had a son named -- his life has exploited in Meyer's second book in the series some of which. In the third book on line among men will remember that line come off of the released back in college. It's his turn alliant among men is now in paperback this week and we want to revisit a conversation we had with Creighton McLaren when the book first came out. I asked about the lions neighbor there. Well it."

" Is partly because when he was -- he shivered so much."

" That that was the sound he made through his flopping ski unit that lips. But also I wanted to tip the hat just a little bit to Byrd a lot to movies but it's like to like Portland like light."

" Do I look back at the film."

" And I see a lion who doesn't look anything like the king of beasts he looks like a man in mind pajamas and --"

" I think what is going on with him."

" In my novel I don't say that he's -- man in -- clearly isn't but it that was in the sense the -- to make me think who is he behind. What we've -- to know."

" Well he really isn't mine and was perhaps. Abandoned by his parents he's not sure beat as a co b.'s wandered through. The jungle thinking net. And everything he encounters he screws up well it took."

" Meanwhile even writing the book before I realized. It isn't just enough that he happens not to have a lioness of a Lion King yes it wanted to file their. To show him the limits and reaches of what it's like to be the king of the forest."

" He actually grows up went out and try and so he has to pick up language such as he does."

" From the wandering. Minstrel send lost trappers and soldiers who occasionally skirted through --"

" In fact I want to do little reading for us this is right after one of those soldiers got caught in a bear trap actually. And dice even as -- you know sort of circling him and thinking what should I do what you do you eat meat -- you hear Bert -- who can do. -- can't do anything and the soldier dies but what does happen in the moment is bird realizes he can talk."

" He'd gone six days similar practicing conversational gambit so loud. Hello oh I'm very new impound. Hello. Are you battery in need of new friend one with prior experience. When he crossed through its ticket to the end of the blueberry patch. The truth I'm -- cobalt and black and pink. And a small creature perhaps the size of human cub was driving it's -- through the offerings. -- couldn't help himself. You must be very brave out here all alone in the woods he began. The -- froze. And turned and I like the blue berry -- I'm alliance. -- straightened his shoulders and tossed his head to carries his mean into magnificence. Whereupon the cubs fell to the ground on its back. It's small stained clothes cops -- it's -- chain. So weak letter Linas better I'm slaying them right and left with my conversational -- He went up to look closely. The -- was intended but -- could see it shaking like a butterfly and draft."

" And the complexity -- kind of put a -- kind of a very forgetful. Group appears just one of the many encounters that -- Meeks. He gets in the middle of well it it could be called genocide did definitely sectarian violence. Violence against trolls. When they're attacked by a mob burn the line just -- one of them says two people line are you anyway."

" And just event after event when he just. Whatever you know self worth he -- just --"

" What I was hoping to explore in this book was the sense. Of imprisonment that we all feel especially recently with developments in chromosomal science the imprisonment we feel about. How much actions. -- predictable because of what we inherited from fox maybe from -- species may be from ethnic groups. Given that predictability. Is it really anything left of free will --"

" Because it's expected of a lion. That you will be more than that it at a certain point when he realizes that he's not going to be that roaring lion. He never expect anything more of himself noticed too he finds he has a taste of cyanide he has a good dive for it."

" Prints that -- can make a cozy little. Business on the side advising. Ladies of a certain age and how to decorate their excellence. He's not much of the lion that we think of in the middle of the."

" No no anyway as the story unfolds there are also laws that depressed talking animals in -- in order to avoid jail after a series of events. Burris sent to track down yeah -- the oracle and find out answer questions. -- have to do with you first two books that are presented you know stand on their own what happened to the wicked -- is boy the year. At which is the clock of the time dragon tell us about all of this. The clock at the time dragon it's this clock with the dragon that it's dragged through."

" Yes and it tells."

" The future a little bit just as an oracle can tell the future and there's another way of examining the same question if Oracle's can tell the future. If the clock itself can put a little puppet shows that will help."

" People who are watching."

" But they are like and what they are about to do and how much free will. Do we have in the scope of our own lives to make any difference yeah."

" Good and McGuire what we left to think about her lion. Analysts said and done."

" He is a lot like us. In this particular day and age. As for me. Seems to be the best -- we have for the United States right now we have this. Broad land of different parts that is very much. Focused upon itself and doesn't think about what Libya -- zone boundaries. So the lion for us right now is a kind of citizen stumbling through partly unfurled from the government. And partly in thrall to his own hopes that he can in fact be the savior of his own life. But he's an animal himself."

" So -- in there are times when he plays the part of the minority he thinks that he's made it at a certain point in his life and society. And many nuances that took him they don't really except in song he's a bit of a collaborator. My agent he spoke."

" Called me after he reached the last page in --"

" He sounds to me like somebody."

" Who is still standing in about 1948. Having expected not to make it through the early forties. And -- make a lot of compromise is. To have me yes and he has to live with himself because of knowing what has happened because of compromises he's made. A lot of book as a flashback but when the book starts he is. Almost a person who has plea bargained with the government and to go do a slightly unseemly job for them in order to avoid being sent to prison. On the way he decides maybe I can make this work for me."

" He's decided that somebody tech support he's never been able to do."

" I think Gregory Maguire speaking about the third book in the -- year's series. -- among minutes out in paperback this week in -- with the Sony music from the Tony -- musical based on his book with its. Here announced production of WBUR Boston association of the BBC world service and PRI's. I'm running and priest curious to -- greens. Here now."

" Funding for here and now. And now works creators of -- lab and simulate technical computing software on the web at math works dot com. -- Review international."