Title: Lunch with a Luminary: John Ochsendorf

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" This is the WGBH four on network."

" Welcome everybody to today's. Lunch with the luminaries. Here and MIT museum my name's John -- activities in -- great pleasure to have you with us. And do come and join us those are just arriving. Make -- We're delighted to have with -- Someone who I think without causing him to -- polarizing -- MIT. Professor -- box and -- He is that I suppose -- thing. Structural engineer and then historians. And for the work that he's already done at the intersection between. Engineering and history among other things. He's a recipient of a -- so called genius award. In 2008 so he's one of the number of officially designated geniuses. Here at MIT. Pack so without further do because I've invested enough. I'm it and give it to jump to say a few words and then hopefully to open up a conversation between missile don't."

" Thank you John while you're bound to be disappointed to hurt that bad to have. Well I'm delighted to be here thank you all for coming. And may actually just. And -- by saying a couple words about my background in the work that we're doing here at MIT and then we can open the floor have a very. Informal discussion."

" I grow up and it really small town in West Virginia. And it will need it was just an amazing childhood we didn't have a television -- we didn't have a telephone. And in the United States in nineteen. 80s70s. That wasn't very common to not have a telephone and TV. And down."

" And so spent a lot of time outdoors read a lot of books most importantly and work with my hands and just a phenomenal childhood."

" And then I decided that. I was good at math so -- become an -- I'm so if you're gonna ask you should be an engineer. And I decided that --"

" I wanted to save the planet. And it to save the -- I would become an environmental engineer. And -- via a series of really flicks I ended up it did Cornell and great university and acorn ally in order and environmental engineering and and ran. Very fast and the big wall. I called chemistry. Where my my. Public school education in West Virginia had prepared me enough for the level of chemistry that I was facing. But what really happened is -- public structures I had a marvelous professor Mary chancellor and it corn -- she taught me. Not to view the world in terms of understanding structures trees buildings bridges how they worked and down."

" But it's. I was really interest in the history and in about -- about my second years are now. This is not going to be a three hour biography don't worry I'm I'll wrap it up pretty quickly but in my second year at Cornell. I went on an archaeological dig. And I spent the entire day digging test fits."

" In the rain and I didn't find a single artifact I didn't find anything that anything of interest at all. But it was just the greatest day of my life I just absolutely loved working on this -- And I decided that my true calling in life was to become an archaeologist and so. I went back to my professor and I said no thanks for all your help I've really enjoyed and."

" Hearing those courses. But I've been missing cultural sites that I know -- important to how the world works Tom minute transferred archaeology."

" to me she said you know what she said that as a great idea she -- you should do archeology but don't leave engineer so she helped me design -- that combined. Archaeology and engineering study historic structures and that led to. A senior thesis on -- suspension bridges this is one DC on the left."

" Which is a bridge that still exist today in Peru that's built entirely out of grass."

" I think grows on the hillsides on either side of the canyon and this bridge has been rebuilt for over 600 years by the communities on either side. And so that became a senior thesis and led to publications. And really gave me a taste of resources and undergraduate once you've tasted were searched once -- Essentially created new knowledge. It was surprising to me how quickly you could activate -- it within a few months."

" Let's say I got very lucky in terms of the topic there weren't a lot of people in the world standing -- suspension bridges."

" But in a way in a sense in my career in the years since then has been an effort to prove that engineers should care about history that we can learn from history. They're good problems in history that are also good research problems. And it can inform our teaching and and fundamentally. I help inform the design of new buildings as well and I think it's fair to say. That we are facing a tremendous challenge in the 21 century and turns it. Making cities and buildings and communities. And houses office buildings."

" Basically carbon neutral or even carbon negative so we almost -- do."

" Completely redesigned the cities and buildings were living in and and create. Buildings that can consume more carbon and they admit and be healthy and dumb and productive places to live and work and so. They're huge challenges there and I found it and my training as an engineer interest in history."

" That work finding new answers. To those questions and so the second image I've brought is an image on the right a."

" Museum that's now nearing completion in South Africa on the border -- Zimbabwe."

" It's. Working with the wonderful architect and South African name Peter rich and it's a museum that's basically -- out of local materials to those bolts that you see are built from. Soil from the dirt on the site is used to compress bricks and then. We've written software defined in the form of those vaults that makes."

" Even weeks oil breaks able to spanned 75 feet in this case -- so we're using historical methods of trying to create."

" I really low energy and beautiful buildings for the future and so. That's an example of some of the type of work that we're going up and down. I guess maybe the thing that are close with which is a real gift."

" From my parents and also from my professors and that is that. Throughout my academic career I've basically worked on problems that could never ever lead to a job."

" And ended up at MIT yeah right well."

" So what happens is if you study things that other people aren't spending but if you work on them out of the passion for the subject in my case it meant that. I was hired as a fact remembered him -- two years before I finish my Ph.D. I'm in part because no one else was working on what I was working on and so. If I hit it if I had pursued the hot topics. I would've been one of hundreds of Ph.D.s in an area all competing for a job whereas in my case out and let me just said just be very clear. I shouldn't maybe joke about this too much because times are tough and people thankful for any type of job but the fact is that -- It was a gift from my professors and from my parents are really just pursue my -- do and I loved."

" And it knows that things would work out that if you study which you really care about. And you work on something you deeply believed and then. Then. Everything's going to be okay you're gonna have food on the table and so anyways I'm grateful to you know to my parents period."

" For that gift."

" So whitbeck."

" I haven't given you too much to sink your teeth into in terms of questions. I can't really describe our work very much."

" I'd be happy to say a few more but maybe that's open the Lawrence is there any questions or comments. How do you think is actually -- it's -- bridges."

" So there's -- I have about one hour lecture on this that the Smithsonian Institution has online but I'll try to give a three minute answer. And a three minute answer is that they have a extensive root system that went throughout the -- and when he came to these deep canyons they have to find some way across these deep canyons. And it turns -- in -- mountainous regions of the world that we have independent convention of the same technologies to if you go to the Himalayas where the Alps. You find the same thing perhaps going back a thousand years of ropes or cables thrown across the canyon you could throw one across and obviously you could kind of Shimmy across wanted you have to across."

" You can now stand not want to hold on to the other it's not terribly stable. If you have three you can stand on one of the middle and into hand rails against three cables kind of gonna be."

" So. The the exact point in time when the first suspension bridge was built one -- now. But what was significant about that in cat was days. They built bridges on a scale of which had not been seen before and I believe they did it may have been an indigenous technology that had been there for a few centuries but. Beginning and say. Around 1218. All throughout the Indies we have -- suspension bridges dozens of them maybe even hundreds of them. Linking together the -- systems and in some cases."

" They were wide enough. To support courses."

" And cannons and army is the Spanish describe when -- arrived at 1532. And the largest ones were made of cables. They were described as being as thick as a man's box that picture cable hits 82 or three feet in diameter. Made of woven."

" Essentially. Minds. Natural fibers that are very strong intentions of those being okay we're really -- a fiber culture so they woo. There are incredibly racist investigated their use of fibers and so. Us of the bridges were essentially woven natural fibers I'm not sure I've answered exactly your question but --"

" Your -- idea of what can and -- make killing here I was. Hoping that an opportunity to bring in this I've heard a rumor that you among other things. Bill erode all of bill's. I don't know whether that's true and if it's true doesn't have any relationship you're interested in these -- structures. -- We -- by the way a little bit yeah it's really you're studying something like grassroots you never know when members search that you do it could lead to some other applications and in the case that you can grassroots what -- have gone from my senior thesis. -- testing on these rumors and the problem was. You had short fibers that maybe twelve or eighteen inches long grass. They were woven together to form a strong cable and that question was how were they woven and how would you grip it and how would you anchor of the road and things like that. So there's a lot of great things about being an MIT about five years ago a marvelous young artist who was based in this building mean did you life. Walked into my office with a backpack and he put the backpack on the table."

" He's here you know something about brooks he started pulling out these wads of dollar bills. And and jet was an artist who worked with money is a medium and he. Said it upon himself to suspend the heaviest object that he."

" From brooks made of only one dollar bills using no glue or any piece of using only friction."

" And outs of the income bridges made based on friction in these fibers so so he's I thought maybe you can help the."

" As part of our -- said and whether he'll get it might one of the few artists with a little money."

" One of the few artists with a lot of money and -- what's fascinating about his work is that he was exploring the meaning of money but it and it is a very specific technical question right."

" So I started working was Janet we came up with the we -- in a way of folding in knitting together these these cables and he did it not be but I worked I can help them a bit."

" He made the most beautiful woven dollar bill cables that you really have to go online and see her and from the ceiling. He suspended. A 700. Pound steel C. -- into the in this building maybe even in this very space critical in this building was random sounds like I should have known about -- yes -- fact that the rotunda where we have all the appropriate safety officers but it doesn't really interest -- problem of how you suspend something any. Using only short fibers held together by friction and done so anyways I ended up on his thesis committee -- beautiful project and down. And he used a lot of ones and he's talking to -- he wants to one basis spend an armored car. Using only one dollar and but that's. -- much much heavier objects. And so we haven't tackled that problem yet."

" But. Sort of post doctoral -- Pratt and -- but but anyway that was a fun project and is an example it. How -- MIT you never know what kinds of problems you'll be asked helpfully it's so this is an --"

" Intriguing yet please entry into sections between structural engineering archaeology. Contemporary design time is going on it was a triangulation process yeah I also."

" I think so but it's it's it didn't."

" Part comes just from a way of viewing the world that as an engineer he -- history you know that. There isn't one answer -- doing things in my criticism mom of mining engineering education wasn't it for years and years I was given problems. In every problem had one answer right. And it the world's not really like that engineering design isn't like that there infinite answers and so within our education there's a lot we can do."

" Two."

" Basically. Open our minds creatively as engineers and were part of a tremendous tradition and for -- studying the history of engineering. Has helped. Open that path and hopefully from my students as well."

" Thank you now please just hit."

" And if you think you were doing this -- vote under British. What was happening in Europe. Where and why didn't they -- in the people in Europe developed the -- this similar technology."

" It's a very good question so what was happening in Europe and around 1200. In Europe we we basically. Find a construction tradition. In this case has descended from Rome. And in Rome. Bridges were -- is head he made of large stones or sometimes cast concrete."

" And they're limited to relatively short spans but they're very well -- I load capacity and can last for long time."

" In terms of really long spans in Europe there were some wooden bridges. Loose and I believe that in some areas of what is today Switzerland. And in the Alps. There were small scale hanging bridges but they were never seen as particularly useful and perhaps in part because. The use of wheeled traffic meant that they wanted a level roadway. And these bridges you go down you go out and they moved quite a lot and so they're perfect for foot traffic and they're quite good for animals but. Not so good for wheels. It's but I will say that when the Spanish arrived in Spain -- in Peru and 1532. These bridges. We're no longer than any expand in Europe at the time these bridges and through. And the Spanish were completely blown away by these bridges because they were so wrong had such a small amount of material. And power. When I say longer I mean the specifics fans is that there are our products and -- European bridges that have many small stand that art is allowed to give you along bridge but each individual stance fairly small and in fact in Peru. And colonial times the Spanish tried for 250. Years to build Marx's over these canyons. And they failed to. And you can probably guess why they failed in order to build an -- you need to have centering in place and when the last found in the keystone is in place. Then art stands as a compression structured you can remove that it wouldn't formal city wouldn't century if it so you can imagine you haven't really wide canyon with a raging river underneath."

" Building a wooden bridge across that they can support through tremendous weight of stone on top of it."

" Is a tremendous engineering and ever answer until basically the -- technology for these for this problem in Peru these deep narrow canyons."

" Wasn't surpassed until the industrial revolution here development of iron bridge I'm gonna say -- this reminds me follow that the first industrial revolution in in in the place like. England wasting people's -- to use chains aren't."

" Iron chains just ban just this kind of tremendous and that really comes about around 171081810. And is completely unrelated to the income bridges is a fascinating thing is that -- keys to doors."

" Right back from Peru may write pages about these bridges -- they rave about easing convergence yet but."

" Don't win in Europe says hey maybe we should try building out of this method and obviously it would have required some additional innovations in the real innovation around 1800 was. A level roadway suspended from cables in whereas in the traditional angered Chinese and bridges."

" The cables are the roadway -- you literally walking on the line on the on the cables. I am so so a few hundred years go by before Europe. Picks -- idea and it's unrelated to be encumbered so these are kind of independent -- independent discoveries and also may be a false trail in history just kind of and in some ways. But it appears that from the you'll put have you been picking up creative ideas that I think you would describe it doesn't matter whether it can be Apple's trailer not becomes a real trial that's true and one of the great. One of the great. You know. Lessons of this income rigidly to this particular one made out of grass is that just as a way of thinking about structures."

" It's a 100%. Sustainable bridge."

" It's completely biodegradable every year they cut it in there river drops and washes away. -- every -- they build in every single year but I think the harsh climates they'd do it in three days and a three day festival. And and these are made of local materials and essentially redeem themselves and so we're talking about me eighty building technique. That we're not going I'm not claiming that you will be driving your cars ever grasp bridges anytime soon."

" That is not the case that the that the but just thinking about lifetimes of materials and it and how we build structures you know there are some there are some sparks they can come out of."

" Studying historical examples thank you know I don't --"

" The -- students she bought you built to ram to work earth wall outside. This building we a couple of years ago. Using simple materials that I understand it very terrible unstable. Why are we using those techniques. In this country for war structures estate because of safety reasons are."

" Okay so the questions about rammed earth that rammed earth as a construction technique is thousands of years old you find it all over the world which -- you make -- form work. You pack local soil into the former can you make earthen walls part of the Great Wall of China significant part of it is made out of rammed earth."

" And so you find this all over the world."

" If you today wanted to build let's say you wanted to build an office building a nice little two story office building you wanna use local materials -- green building and you want to make the walls out of rammed earth. And you wanted to."

" Even more revolutionary. And say that you're going to add an innocent man to the earth because if you act. Five or 10% -- as a -- you can make that kind of earth and concrete."

" That's fairly stable you can do about that but adding no cement. Which is what people are going all over the world for millennia."

" Wouldn't be allowed by any building code number one number -- but how would you know how long it would last and how would you know what makes design of the materials would make the most sense and the reason you wanna do away with some answers because cement has variant. It's very energy intensive and making it gives a lot awful lot of CO2 in the production. So arm. So a student at MIT judge Damon and -- and said you know I'm interest in this -- their stuff I'd like to pursue it for thesis."

" And we came up with a good deal of building a test war on campus so if people -- interest and literally right behind us around the corner there's a Lamberth law. It was just thesis project."

" And we conceive that this wall as a test product as a way of proving that in the New England climate. Person construction can be beautiful you'll see it from this you'll think it's a concrete wall. Local under feeding artists also think it's a concrete wall and maybe decorated it and we take that as a sign of affection. That. -- an unintended compliment and exactly and one of the nice things about Joe's wall is lit. He experimented with different makes -- certain amounts of different compositions of local soil and local clay. And then he embedded plates on the law telling you the mix design so when you look at it you can see. That this one is two parts of gravel won hearts and into parts clay and this other -- a different combination. And you can see how well Wallace whether."

" And it's made it through about four -- New England winters so far some fairly cold."

" Wet winters I might add with a lot of snow often piled up against the wall. And down so you can look for signs of wear into the snow and down so we view it as a long term experiment."

" And and basically getting to the point where if an architect wanted to go to -- in New England they can bring their client down here they could say you know this is what the -- would look like after five years. In these of the components and so the irony of this of the reason I'm there's the story. Is worth shared thank you for bringing it up."

" Is that historical methods of construction that are very green very local may create beautiful low energy architecture."

" We've essentially forgotten how to do that and so."

" And so we in some ways have to rediscover and we have to."

" Do testing to prove to clients and building owners that you could build -- traditional methods like this so."

" So that's part part of what we're trying to do and it's a good example of MIT's motto of mind and hands that."

" We don't like to just read about rammed earth walls and you know take pictures up when we like to get dirty and build them. And down it's kind of we use that kind of Tom Sawyer trick if it's not every day you get to build -- rammed earth walls. And so then we get lots of volunteers to help us build these things."

" They've got okay I've got two runs one of back and then by the board please. So. I love the idea of building locally built with the local materials. And probably that would mean different parts of the world going to have completely different. Architectures based on what materials are available there. But on the biological side there is in the past 10200 years been huge mixing where we can now have ornamental bamboo from China and weeds from Florida and end signs from South America all growing in New England. If you're going to make a wish list of biological. Of plans to use for construction in New England. So that he could pull from anywhere in the world but we do have people plant well. Is a good question."

" Didn't envy the simple answer we'll make -- let me back up a little bit. If foreign material science department and MIT said we just invented this marvelous -- tier one has these properties this density in the history the strength characteristics. And arm while in the process of manufacturing this year it actually absorbs carbon from the atmosphere. And look at just look generally it it all the different things we can do with this material and we're going to college would. -- it would be this incredible discovery. And so basically. -- timber is a phenomenal materials so phenomenal structural material. And we're not going to build. Fifty Storey buildings -- September but in new England and across the United States. We would rather grow our structures rather than dig up mountains burn things that high temperatures and and create our structures that -- which is how we do it now with mostly concrete and steel. And so are so but my wish list is basically. Plant trees and as someone from West Virginia where. Where. Mountaintop removal. Coal mining is flattening many of our mountains to get the coal underneath. I would much rather have the timber industry run the whole state in the coal industry because you can. You can harvest trees for 10000 years you can't mined coal for 10000 years. And so generally part of is about changing attitudes the kinds and their challenges with -- but."

" But I personally. Love that covered bridges of new England and I recommend that all of you it's a great way to spend the summer daylight today. Go and explore covered bridges in New England there the most beautiful."

" Examples of vernacular. Engineering and architecture -- would."

" There covered not to cover your head so that you can."

" Though there and kids in other sometimes don't kissing bridges. Abbott to protect the -- of the structural members of the what happens is the -- in the roof of a covered bridge. Is basically sacrificial material. It's replaced every thirty years or fifty years but the trusses all throughout England you can find. 200 year old timber trust -- that are absolutely. In great shape. That have been protected by woods so. So generally I would like to see a lot more wooden structures and there's a marvelous would architecture along spam would groups things that have been built that part of it is. Getting architects and engineers to even specify I would because when I was in school there to materials. Steel and concrete. And that's what we've built with both of those happen to have very high carbon emissions and you know we're gonna continue to use steel and concrete but I think. As we move towards a world where clients care about carbon emissions per square foot in their buildings."

" More traditional materials start to have to make more sense."

" And it and fundamentally it's are issues about progress ideology because if you set -- 21 building. 21 century building we would immediately maybe think of this Frank Gehry building down the street with a titanium in the stainless steel. And I might say you know what you wanna see it -- for century building look at the rammed earth wall behind me in nineteen museum."

" Made it clear that came from a construction site at Harvard it was on its way to a landfill and we said wait stop that track. -- player right here and we're gonna do something with it. And -- we built the wall out of what was basically a waste product so."

" So it's just that it requires a switch and thinking about what is progress and progress isn't necessarily space age materials. When it comes to green buildings so."

" Or -- kind of all over the map here but at least you're getting -- senses of where I'm coming from some of the work that we're doing here thank you somebody in the middle it gets please."

" thanks. When I was in high school my mom introduced me to work at Heinz he's solar is an architect from Switzerland and a lot of the stuff looks just like your slide there. The basic idea was. If you takes some cheese cloth or something and put rubber and it and hang it upside down it makes a nice curvy shape and when you turn it right side up. It's holds the same shape in the same things that -- intention working compression. So it's just wondering if you you know what your explorations along those lines of it."

" Marvelous so. -- there is one of the greatest living structural engineers he's based in Switzerland and in east following on an idea that was developed by Robert hook. An English scientist and 1675. And Robert -- said. If you take -- chain and hang it. It will hang in your attention. And if you get somehow freeze that chain under its own weight and if you could somehow freeze that chain and turn it over it would be the perfect or ideal shape for an arts. Under timely now that shape is caught captain Mary it's -- in Europe for apple. And and other designers -- DEA and Barcelona used in three dimensions but -- as -- most successfully and so. He hangs fabrics and tension and many -- them up and some of his shells. Span 200 feet. And our two inches thick in concrete and require no waterproof things of their peer compression structures. And your right they -- this show in particular in South Africa we are directly influenced by -- and he -- And I did my master's degree at Princeton University with an incredible professor named David Billington is. I'm written and studies where -- and has really. Brought his work to the attention of American engineers so I wouldn't be surprised if your mother had some influence from the Princeton school. I okay great well he swears in the year but I'm so it is a tremendous influence on us. The differences. They're two primary differences with these -- just -- drive the point home. He's their finds -- great form and and he builds a wooden form mark any cast the concrete on top of that he takes the wouldn't former down. And -- uses it to build other shelves. And this involves. We are using much less cement and we're using virtually no steel in fact in the show proper there's -- fuel at all."

" Where is east of their shells are filled with the greatest deal."

" I'm so we have slightly thicker but so we have lower body emissions. And in the second thing is we use form work to build an -- on the four edges. And then it as the ball is we built the balls with no form work in the center so we use that tradition of medieval -- That that comes from Spain Wii is ascending order and by using a fascinating border on two edges of a break if I -- you put capacity in order to edges you put in place and it holds itself there. And then the next break you do and it holds itself they're so these false lead that all that you're looking at is built with almost no reform work at all so again it's less resource intensive and it's."

" It's more appropriate for a country where you have very low labor costs so more appropriate maybe for developing country. But -- is a very strong influence -- glad you brought mossy YouTube to right on the button here I think it's bad thing with the question would you like dismal news tonight."

" How do you maintain the shape if you're just putting the -- in my hand I. Very carefully how. In this case. If you if you had a construction photo which. If I were giving my standard six hour lecture I would have 400 slides and we would go through the moment. In a construction photo you would see that they are lightweight metal guides. That we set up within that 3-D space. And so the masons as they're building Arbil warning to those dots and the guys aren't supporting the work. But we're laying out the geometry in three dimensions -- so that allows that we do it fairly quickly and easily with scaffolding and then. Then it would strip so it's a."

" So there you can find some pictures online but the but be here right at the geometry really matters and we can't."

" Leave it up to chance that we we provide 3-D gods and and we built of those. Good very good questions and thank you announced this microphone please debt coming."

" What you're showing there is essentially it was amenable to. And yeah it's almost as if this audience was trapped with all of the hot topic we do -- thank you very much so what's that mean out of -- I don't velocity now trying not to break into the three hour lecture on match but."

" I've been studying lost to be no construction for eight years and you're exactly right this is blossoming out -- construction. Dropout -- to -- no -- an architect engineer who came from Barcelona it's the United States and 1881. Any -- a thousand buildings across the United States and here in Boston we found 75 of his buildings with. An entire horrible thing in New York in Manhattan alone there -- over 200 buildings in the buildings are. Carnegie Hall in Manhattan the oyster bar in the basement of Grand Central Terminal some of you may know uses this powerful. And Ellis Island the main registry all up and down. So he's an example of another. Great builder whose works have been studied sufficiently and so I have a book coming out on Boston you know construction next spring. And we have an exhibition opening at the Boston Public Library in September. 2010. Now on this company's works and the great thing about the library is that it's almost entirely vaulted -- you know powerful things when you're in the exhibition. You look up for the next time -- in the Boston Public Library look up and you'll see this -- vaulting technology that comes directly from Spain. And lands in the United States."

" last comment. Yeah actually mostly tiles. Or use MacBooks. We're fire. Six and -- In fact there."

" Exactly your rights and that. The factories daily position can -- today you can see a beautiful vault in the -- the signature Boston you know the company logos and mosaic in the four."

" And as part of our exhibition next year we hope to have public perception at the factory."

" Because this company made tiles and Woburn Massachusetts."

" Ship him out thousand projects across the country and you can find their work and 41 states across the country so. I like to play a game where."

" If you tell me where you're from main city year's state and I'll tell you lost -- building in your state so maybe we can do that once or twice if someone wants it."

" So want to name a state that you brought. --"

" There there are risks involved. -- a question like that you tie as far as I know has no walks to be noble thing. But. There -- buildings and Colorado. And there is very significant buildings and Nebraska. But you -- draw blanks. Yeah we just one little sometimes mean this is like somebody."

" It does have a lot of --"

" So that's true to what you've done the job."

" What was fit pencils -- the Pennsylvania south Pennsylvania I hardly know where to start because if you go to Pittsburgh. Thirtieth the most significant buildings in Pittsburgh all contained -- the you know vaulting from."

" On Carnegie Mellon probably my favorite example is in baker hall with central campus of Carnegie Mellon has the most marvelous tile -- that's --"

" Which I'm hoping we'll end up on the cover of my book. But also the cathedral of learning. And Heinz chapel it hit and anyway there are dozens of buildings and God's really significant buildings. Pennsylvania. Are I'm sorry Philadelphia very significant buildings museums the Philadelphia art museum you -- has some tremendous buildings on campus."

" Basically every Ivy League university has a handful of lost -- you know buildings on campus so. Pennsylvania is -- much easier for me sir thank you for giving me an easy way."

" Not can you -- link. For me anyway and put this conversation we've we've we've started -- back. Aztec -- bridges -- Sorry because brokerages they get. We're not talking about something that feels like a world away that the use these are obviously costs about a lot single project. He said -- about what. What one of the things these things have in common -- it okay. I think I'll try. To go back to the question about Heinz he's there. If you look at the income."

" Bridge it's hanging as a captain if you stood on your head. You would see an arch. And so the Boston Reno -- and the bolts in South Africa it works because it's an inverted hanging bridge. And it. The reason we're interested in these forms is because they can use much less material that he carried forces acts Healy."

" And so the way most of our buildings are built they carry loads. I -- bending which is the way of being -- so this building in most other buildings around us."

" And ending is a terribly inefficient way to carry loads and I'll just illustrate that very simply with. Take it ten pound embargo. And you hang it in your waist and your arm is indirect tension and you can pretty comfortably hold ten pounds. If you put it over your head your -- and direct compression and you can still fairly comfortably hold ten pounds. If you put it out to the side your arm is working in Beijing and a combination of tension and compression. And within about thirty seconds you are very unhappy. Holding a ten pound bar -- out here at your side and so generally. One of the things that."

" For me was a link between income bridges to masonry structures which is a lot what a lot of our researchers on is they work acts the only."

" Which means direct compression direct attention rather than bending and it allows us to use -- until that's one. The second thing I think is. The basic premise that we can create better architects and engineers. If they know about the history of construction. That if you know about a wants to be novel and how it works in three dimensions. Space surely Howard was built. You'll be a better design. And you'll have a better sense of construction you'll have a better sense of."

" Essentially a potential to invent new things in the future and so."

" With all due respect to my colleagues and MIT who teach architectural history. Most of our teaching of history of buildings is about it basically comes from our history we read buildings like paintings. We don't talk very much about how the buildings were actually built. So part of what we're doing is a history of construction. It tries as technologists to say you know what we should care. About how Grand Central station was bills because."

" Both it helps us understand our architectural heritage it helps us preserve these buildings and it may even help us find. Greener ways of buildings in the future a building in the future like the project in South Africa so. It was a difficult question maps and an attempted."

" I wasn't sure it was a part of it trick question and you'll very articulate in response I mean I guess I. I don't want to stop people coming in but I guess that by implication. One thing that you're you're suggesting to me is that a risk. In a culture of technical innovation is the kind of on these yet. That that that consent and that is the one can forget. About things that the previous generation. Even in the relatively recent Fox News because you think they're no longer relevant and in forgetting. I'm hearing you as saying he could be losing something you could be losing real possibilities."

" an easy that's absolutely the case both for new design and for maintenance as I can tell you in the case of lost in noble thing there examples in this country."

" Where walks to be -- were torn down because engineers could not calculate. Engineers were called in to assess the safety of this -- have lost cleanup company to the most tremendous load tests here in Boston."

" They worked with MIT professors in the 1880s and eight they proved the structural safety of their volts through those tests and simplified calculations and."

" Around 1970 The Metropolitan. Museum of Art in new York and New York. Wanted to put a new exhibition and they called in engineers engineers kind of scratch their heads and said you know."

" We really don't how these votes work and so they tore them -- and I put -- system of steel beams to support the floor because they could calculated."

" That problem. My research group arrived about thirty years too late."

" Because it."

" But I love that something -- chomping at the bit to try to proven we're developing methods to try to prove that such -- can support certain loads. But the calculation methods are being forgotten and lost and so so ended."

" We can be impoverished as a society if we lose our buildings for no reason other than we don't know how to calculate how they stand up."

" I'd like to think that if it's been standing for a hundred years it's probably."

" Leo okay Andy entity unless the owners should be army engineer to prove that it's unsafe -- to say you know what. That's had that happen and -- one visit there's a phrase that's used about I come from Europe -- it actually -- my accent and the medieval cathedrals which just buildings of great ones that. To anybody who you know an announcement that how did they do that and the phrase that you've probably -- currently is that people put these things up of the and rest Elisabeth stays up five minutes for this they've out."

" 500 years is any truth and others some -- senate because if it's stable. Then it will continue to be stable these are people who built medieval buildings I should say I did my Ph.D. at Cambridge in England and before I went to Cambridge I was fairly ignorant but that I got educated at Cambridge and down. I possible my my advisor Cambridge it was a marvelous professor named Jacques iron man who was chief engineer for Westminster happy. Was engineer for many large -- around England. And the amazing thing about these cathedrals. Is that these balls in three dimensions many of them have large -- and and I stood on top meaning medieval -- where I can actually stick my arm through cracks and faults. And that again the challenge for an engineer today is not only to prove that -- the city but to prove that with large -- and it's. It's safe answer those are some other very real -- search problems that we're working on an even more what happens when the ground starts to shake."

" In an earthquake or. Are you building -- subway under one part of the building and it and the wall saddle like two centimeters below the ball be okay so these are some of the problems our research group is really working on and and their hard technical problems."

" One of the great delights for me and -- T over the last seven years has been that in my passion for history in my pursuit of history. I found really really good engineering problems to sink our teeth into and so that's been tremendously fulfilling fantastic please."

" Yeah thanks I don't mean to -- the Mike but a lot of my kids here in Cambridge public school. Have been testing the Renaissance and one of the things they study is the delete those -- in Florence and you know how he went to Rome and looked at the Roman domes and then just figured out how to do it better so I was just wondering. You know your talk about forgotten history made me think of that."

" Yes so."

" He's -- in Florence is one of the great buildings of all time and one of the great building achievements of all time."

" And for me what's most significant about that element comes back to east learned the question of centering. Unless he inherited the problem -- drop there was an unfinished cathedral and the question was how to build a dome on top of it."

" And -- asking not only came up with a solution but he came up with a solution. That it could be dealt with no support from underneath."

" And he did it by building it in concentric rings with the marvelously. Complex geometry that has been described him and some very good the search in recent years but. But he's someone who admired tremendously he did it with a double shell of bricks and he got a greater thickness and down."

" And it is one of these great."

" Buildings of all time and one of the great things about these buildings is that you can actually use children's toys children's blocks. To study their safety and the reason you can do that is because historic masonry buildings like the great cathedrals of Europe. Are basically a problem of stability and not stress and what that means is that if I stack up children's blocks and they're stable. And then if they become unstable and fall down in the box are all intact the blocks -- crushed. And so it MIT a few blocks from here we are actually. 3-D printing domains. Out of small scale blocks we stack up the blocks and then we're putting them wanna shake table. And vibrating the table and trying to see at what point."

" The domes will collapse and down we're also tilting them and spreading in the supports and one of the great problems with -- is down."

" Is that the support spread apart it developed cracks. 600 years ago and it's been standing with these large tracts of percents as has the pantheon Rome and other buildings so."

" So are."

" Again it's the same problem you happen in perfect cracked geometry how safe is it and then how safe is it an earthquake. And many of you probably remember three weeks ago there was a major earthquake in Italy and some very significant buildings collapsed and the question is. Which buildings are safe and which are not safe and the basic science. Still doesn't exist the basic science of how that don't will stand in an earthquake. How the pantheon Rome has stood for 2000 years and earthquakes. The answer is we don't know. And hit it. They gave it my students and I are kind of sharpening our tools for battle is the days when an engineer comes -- says. The pantheon as unsafe. We're up against 2000 years of history and we wanna be in a position to say well actually. We can prove that it's safe under -- earthquake you throw at it and that's not an easy problem to do what it takes a lot of confidence. Because of the -- on collapses. People -- I'm sorry it. Chances are -- you know there's earthquakes and then there's earthquakes are right so so the question is can we prove -- Any earthquake that's possible and Rome based on our knowledge of the GO physics and the."

" The site."

" Could we prove that -- expect an earthquake in -- is not sufficient to cause the pantheon to collapse. Because of the -- collapse tomorrow would be a tremendous calamity and we are also -- and studied."

" I think your promise less severe than that because -- only to prove it's as stable as the other buildings around it."

" Yes and no one thing that happens and -- in building in earthquakes in places like Turkey is that you do see examples of historic. Domes surviving earthquakes where modern."

" Concrete buildings fall down and it becomes a tradeoff between life safety in economy because you could make any building safe."

" Against an expected earthquake but it would be tremendously expensive to do that so so. What the answer is you know in the case of the pantheon can we prove that you don't need to do and because there's things we could do we can wrap up the ante on in chains. And maybe you'd say that's a pretty good insurance policy that's a good idea is due in fact -- keystone and Forbes is rapid change some balls among them. Is racked with chains and -- in -- has -- with -- In part because of cracking that occurred. So so anyway this is really at the heart of what our research group doesn't if you. We're just enough are searched to read some of our journal publications that specifically what we're studying."

" Examples of how buildings made of old stone and survive earthquakes. So it's a piece of researchers understand it which is if he's directed to the question should we be worried. Do we have reason don't they learned about the safety or integrity get a sentence structure."

" Yes and I I think if I said if I said if I tried to summarize. Our search here MIT I think there -- three broad categories the first is there's history like income bridges in the wants to be -- construction."

" Just understanding the history of buildings its construction a second one is engineering a -- buildings approving an old building is safe."

" And then a third one is design new X and so these are all areas that we're working in and they're all interconnected in some ways as you can see because. We could never have designed this project in South Africa if we hadn't studied Boston you know construction. And if we hadn't known about -- voters work and about masonry vaults and gothic buildings so."

" So our work combines all these."

" Now please there. But folks who haven't lost anything this is your opportunity don't miss that SI haven't won back the question up nicely -- please."

" Get getting back to materials what what do you think of materials. Combined things like wood with modern terrorists like -- Tracks are these kinds of reconstituted waited in plastic composites. It is these sets of leading towards the beneficiary. They're putting it out. Could you repeat I I think Anderson the question which was MI happy with engineered wood products like you take wood chips and you compress them right Pastor -- says it's so let's say you're years you're using the -- frustration of what in your your -- also taking saint classics that would normally go to land so -- and and so so they're good."

" Things about that and pat I'm happy about that generally it turns out that engineered wood products. Do you have. Higher embodied energy then traditional dimension lumber."

" But they allow you to do greater things I mean you're limited otherwise you're limited by the length of trees basically. And if you wanted to build long spans and amber you almost have to use engineered wood and generally I'm very happy with those products I think there. They're typically. Better for example. For some applications and steel or concrete which are more energy intensive."

" But it's also true that you can you can some of them use some fairly nasty. Binders and adhesives that. Also give off -- greenhouse gas emissions and also are not very pleasant things for the plan but."

" But if we can get to engineered wood products that use."

" Greener manufacturing. Principles then that would be. Absolutely brilliant and so we need more work in that direction but generally. It's a good idea and I think just more on the same lots -- more broadly I will say that the way we build our buildings until now for the most part is. We don't we dig a natural resources we dig up a mountain we've processed materials we built a building. The building dies or developer comes along and tears it down and then the building goes to the landfill. That paradigm. Is -- we cannot continue to keep doing that on a global scale because construction as you so many materials. If you think about buildings in that way buildings -- really waste and transit. Which is it tremendously easy way to offend architects is to call all buildings trash if it. But I I say that buildings -- waste and transit because we're -- natural resource as we assemble them for maybe 2030 maybe even a hundred years. But in the end up and landfill and even. Even buildings that you think last a long time the pinnacles on the late gothic building among them. Only last may be under 200 years and they date from 1970. And so ultimately we like to get to a point where we are building from waste products or local material so if we could mine. The waste streams of society in which include. And Paris a million plastic bottles every day plastic drinking water bottles. It MIT a couple of thousand. Computer monitors. That we go through if we could find ways to deal with these products with if we could lie and the waste streams of society and turn them into useful products rather than to -- in the landfill. That would be good so I'd like architects and engineers in the future to think more creatively. About. -- resources come from a where they did not because the old paradigm. It's kind of a nineteenth century idea that doesn't really work with the resource constraints that we have 21 century."

" Some of what you're talking about is done I believe with furniture so you -- there's some items of furniture I've seen which -- described at least is being made from waste plastics. Oh wait rubber materials and -- to be advocating some analog scale of the."

" I'm that's true any -- all around you can find products and even in our buildings now you know drywall and -- others are very high recycled content and material that's going into this summer that is already happening just driven by economics."

" But we also have a movement. Among architects and engineers to try to."

" Think more creatively and maybe I'll just give you a simple example that I gave in class to my students not two hours ago. If you're designing let's just say you are designing a feeder. For local community. The conventional ways that you don't dig up the mountain we make steel and here's a trust for that to cover the -- All across the United States that are abandoned highway bridges from 1920s. And 1930s there either not wide enough not high enough that the DOT took down build a new bridge. And then they put -- ship somewhere and storage. And in most states you can actually find abandoned highway trust is that you could have for a dollar if you just take it away from them. Right so I like the idea of architects thinking creatively coming into communities saying hey you know what. I that we can find a beautiful historic metal truss bridge it from this -- to this community. And we could be given a new home in this building rather than melting down all beings or or. And so that's an example of adaptive reuse or salvageable materials and it's it's a kind of radical idea but it's also very simple. And and it's an example of how we can train architects and engineers to think more creatively about resources and ultimately save money for clients and society and have lower environmental impact too it's about some of the kind of."

" Out of the box creative thinking we're trying to do to bring him to practice."

" I think that probably leads me -- two. Thank you and I just showed up a little bit late. Big interest in building building design house design. And leading up to the plastic bottles and then where and how to build buildings. Most buildings if you build and an extra 50% bigger you're gonna have an answer to 2% more cost and expense and in building them. And in part to meet a whole reason for that is is because you've got to keep. Electrify. You know cool. You've got to do all the place function to make it palatable for human beings. And it seems kinda. Don't need for me to have the -- flyby every single building on the planet pretty much every single day. When 95% of our energy comes from the sun. Why -- we use in the sun to make the settlements buildings that actually perform. Collect Rainwater purify it send it back out so that take the electric available not through just photovoltaic panels. But building designed allows you to put. Progressively. Enhanced absolutely structures on it to take advantage of right of -- connected."

" To our work societies all over the world we're building sustainably because they didn't have a choice right. Right up."

" Well using the sun intelligently."

" Using that prevailing winds intelligently. And we basically. Backed ourselves into a corner we can do anything with technology and you can make a sealed glass box. In the desert and and pumping air conditioning through it and it's Matt Wright and so. We're trying to create a new generation of architects and engineers."

" Who will start with the constraints of the problem and the constraints of the problem are."

" Where the prevailing winds do I need to buy air conditioning can I get away and just use the winds is a breeze it to cool my building. Cannot use the sun intelligently. Rather than on intelligently and the Gehry building right here on campus is a great example because it's a giant solar -- we have shiny surfaces. They're focusing us on into an office and absolutely. Roasting. Graduate students who are sitting at a desk in front of a glass window. You could've started from another standpoint which said you know I've got the shiny metal surfaces I've got the sun passing through there and January."

" Could I make an internal solar collector may be with a pool of water."

" It would actually heat the building in the winter months but in the summer months with the song wouldn't hit it. And those kinds of constraints lead us to better design but until now. Clients haven't been asking the question enough and and were giving to the point now. Weird it's no longer acceptable to design a building and to not care about where the sun -- But for the last century that's basically what we've been doing."

" And down so I'm not sure I've got exactly to your point but let me just say and its. This."

" Most of my work is on the embodied energy what it takes to make the building rather than the operating energy I have very good colleagues at MIT who study. Operating energy. Work on what it takes the light and in the bottom line is. Even keep these examples. Gave its kind of crazy to use solar power to power interior lights when you can just bring some light indirectly. And so we have a marvelous expert in daylight in and we -- daylight in labs and we're studying technologies to bring in daylight in. Deeper into buildings and to get rid of the electric lights and to get rid of -- isn't just his natural life."

" I just as an observation about that although this building is hardly a model of any of the systems that you're describing. We are working with some of -- colleagues to try to get an exhibition in this space that would actually demonstrate some of the same techniques we have a roughly speaking south facing windows apparently it. We're hoping to have an accident in about a year that would show. Daylight can be brought in to buildings and creative ways and just -- and."

" I shouldn't say that I have a lot of the adaptive -- be adapted for use in the building like this because if we can recycle old buildings and find ways to adapt to. The new design."

" To new uses them that's better than tearing down buildings and building new ones."