Title: Here and Now for Thursday, September 10, 2009

" Support for this podcast comes from a SCDs. And educational leadership association for best practices and policies. At AS CD dot org learn. Teach lead. Here now is a production of WBUR Boston in association with the BBC world service and PRI."

" I'm -- Young it's here and now President Obama is not moving from the spotlight today. Speaking at the White House before tearing nurses he said too many people are being cut off from health coverage and that's an American. A CNN poll shows his speech last night before congress. Had a positive effect before the speech a little more than half of respondents supported his proposals afterwards two thirds did. And Republican congressman Joe Wilson of South Carolina has apologized for his moment last night."

" They're also those who claim that our former -- would insure illegal immigrants. This too is false. The report. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those were here in the."

" Listen there -- accusing the president of lying even though others including John McCain on The Today Show this morning said he wasn't. We'll perhaps the disinformation. Can be traced to Sean Hannity of Fox News who made this charge on August 27."

" And finally had any American president has repeatedly accused of opponents are peddling falsehoods and the health care debate. -- one of them he says is that illegal immigrants will be covered by the bill."

" Donald Washington examiner notes that according to the congressional research service the critics are right."

" The -- quote does not contain any restrictions on non citizens whether legally or illegally present."

" Actually the New York Times reports that the nonpartisan congressional research service says exactly the opposite. Let's start today with some fact checking experts estimate that there are about six point eight million uninsured illegal immigrants in the US that was in 2007. And that's out of a total of almost twelve million illegal immigrants total. Right now most hospitals have laws on the books that say they and others he illegal immigrants must be treated when they arrived -- emergency rooms. But what is the truth about how they'd be insured under a new health care reform proposal joining us first. The Pulitzer prize winning -- fact dot com reporter -- Angie is the president right."

" We found that the president is is right did basically the bill does not address illegal immigration in any Stanton waits. -- all the laws that affect illegal immigrants health care right now. I'm particularly how they're excluded from Medicaid. Does stay in place the laws that require hospitals to treat people who show up at her gravely ill. Those stay in place. There's a clause. This specifically told. Illegal immigrants may not receive. Affordability credits to help them buy insurance on an exchange. Out -- the congressional research service. Found that. When they set up this national health insurance exchange where people can go in comparison -- that there is no mechanism to specifically bar. Illegal immigrants from buying insurance. If they can pay for but -- it illegal immigrants would have to pay full price for their insurance just like they do now."

" So there's no government subsidy."

" There's no government subsidy and when you look at what the legislation does. It's pretty much to leave in place for the status quo for illegal immigrants."

" So a president got a correct from you on your truth O meter."

" That's right and we actually rated Jim Wilson's statement that you live in Wichita. All Obama did not -- us."

" Well let's move on to some other issues the president also said if you already have health insurance to your job Medicare Medicaid or Didier. Nothing in the proposed plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage of the -- you have now. The scene in new word here require to first of -- how did you read that statement as it stands."

" We -- that statement true."

" He used to say you won't lose your insurance -- now he says you will be required to lose your insurance. Tells -- that."

" Well what -- are a lot is. New regulations in this bill. That are gonna affect the health care industry as they're going to be require insurers are gonna be required to cover preventive care. There won't be allowed to exclude preexisting conditions. So we're we're talking about -- significant changes. To get health care industry as we know it. Now previously Obama would make. Blanket statements like you can keep the coverage you have you can keep the doctor you have and that we found that was pushing to handle obliterated that statement -- treated. Because there were no guarantees that employers would not. Choose to change coverage the way they can't now. -- new statement is he says there's nothing in the plan that will force you to change and that and that it's true that we rated it treated."

" That your employer might decide to change and you have no control and."

" Just like right now yes. Still the case under reform."

" Tort reform though one. Full standing ovation from Republicans was when the president said to them that he understands the financial burden lawsuits place on doctors willing to consider tort reform. Your thoughts on that response if."

" But it's very interesting what Obama said which is going to direct the secretary of health and human services to allow. Pilot projects in different states. Experiment to see what they can do. To prevent. Lost seats. Did -- frivolous or unwarranted. But it's that the -- far there had been no major. Republicans initiatives included in health care reform. And that would be these things like putting caps on jury awards Obama's that he does not agree that his ideas. They're not in the plant."

" Okay there's so many items and we're just gonna -- through a few today -- continue to look at them over the the the weeks to come but the president also says that he wouldn't sign any bill that was not deficit neutral that is that adds a single penny to the deficit without. You know having it cuts to offset it somewhere else would you give that."

" Well this we're gonna have to monitor and -- the current plans in congress right now are not deficit neutral. The leaders have said they hoped to. Get it could be deficit neutral as they deal with the legislation that they have certain accounting. Maneuvers that they want to ease. Obama put out a new number last night that 900 billion total costs and deficit neutral. We're going to have to wait until we see the legislative language and the Congressional Budget Office scores that -- it's too soon to tell right now."

" No -- we view and you Holland reporter for politico dot com in Washington DC Angie thanks so much thank you. And as we said last night the president confronted opponents of health care reform that he says are spreading misinformation."

" Some people's concerns have grown out of bogus claims. Spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform and at -- cost. The best example is -- not just by radio and cable talk show host but by prominent politicians. That we plan to -- up. Panels of bureaucrats the power to kill -- senior citizens. Not such a charge would be laughable if it weren't so cynical and irresponsible. It is a line."

" In reality the provision under discussion would require Medicare to reimburse doctors for their time. When they advise patients on end of life decisions. And the people who pioneered that concept have watched as conservative talk show hosts and politicians including Sarah Palin Newt Gingrich. Equated that to government run death panels that would pull the plug on granma. The Washington Post recently tracked down the origins of the provision to the gun doesn't Lutheran hospital in lacrosse Wisconsin now. That hospital pioneered the end of life counts in program that urges families to plan while there while they have their health and today. 90% of the town's 52000 residents had end of life directive that's twice the national average. And the hospital testified in congress to get the doctor reimbursed provision included in health care legislation. But hand -- director of medical humanities at Gunderson Lutheran he's a clinical ethicist with the Ph.D. in philosophy but welcome. Thank you ever tell your thoughts on the president's speech last night specifically when he dealt with the rumor about death penalty."

" There was kind of gratifying and maybe kind of that feeling like this is something that needed to be said. This legislation about reimbursement for positions. Counseling -- help in their patients make decisions about future medical decisions. Was actually in process well before -- healthcare reform. It is clearly something I think that would improve Medicare patients in our country and there never was anything more than. A payment for service and so from my perspective. This provided more benefits for people in our country than they currently -- out and was a very positive thing for patient here."

" Well on its server from the readings that we've been doing it it's seems like people in your town feel it's been very positive for the town held missiles started because you -- instrumental we understand your native. A lacrosse returned -- city after your studies and to be director of medical humanities. What you see what what was it that caught your attention."

" They started to do what people now call ethics consul I would be asked to come in. To talk with families or patience win conflict rose or maybe uncertainty existed about what we should do regarding the treatment of a particular patient and what I saw was an emerging pattern. Of patients who were now incapacitated. And -- significantly. Ill or injured in all likelihood of recovery. In family members who had to make decisions. On behalf of their loved one and they had no idea what the patient did or did not want."

" Give us an example of one of those. Your life situations."

" The pattern actually saw evolved dialysis patients these -- patients who have kidney failure. In our around a lifesaving treatment called dialysis but there are often complications. In the complications that I was seen our severe stroke where patients were now left. Rendered unconscious. They were not gonna recover they were not gonna wake up. But we could keep them alive if we continued dialysis. The ethical question then -- should we continue dialysis. My question would be if you mother could speak for herself right now and understand everything that you understand what would -- tell --"

" Meaning understand that she was not going to ever wake up from the situation."

" Right so what about those hypothetical sir because the patient couldn't Telesis and wasn't ever going to be able to tell -- and I repeatedly got the same answer from all these different families over the course of a few years which is we don't know. And they would also say if we only knew."

" One of the hardest conversation than any family American have because you don't acknowledge that there is even such a thing. As end of life that. You're hospital began urging families to plan on anybody -- healthy to have these conversations. To right directives to tell hospitals what they should do and you -- physicians to talk to them. About what you know what medicine -- can't do to explain to -- remembers what it would mean and and they had to serve as health care agent and express somebody's which is if they could express them. What you -- start happening in your hospital when you started doing this program."

" We started to develop a training program for what we call advance care planning facilitators. Nurses social workers and some time and an even chaplin's. Who get very intense training so that they have the skills to assist and work with the position. As a kind of team player. Two. Help these conversations. And that helps us to deal with the resource issue both the regarding the positions time and the payment issue. So we use less expensive health professionals if you wanna put it that way. To assist -- with the position in making sure that these conversations happen."

" We Aniston in overtime and people started doing it more and more people started talking their neighbors about it practice caught -- of making sure you had an end of life directive. To the point that your patience that -- and we just announced and an average of thirteen and half days in the hospital in their final two years of life. This isn't contrast with big city hospitals what's the want to -- at the University of California and LA. 31 days University of Miami hospital 39 days so instance what's happening is that people are choosing. Not to spend a lot of time in the hospital with a lot of services at the end of their life."

" Cracked when patients really understand what to prognosis is. And really understand how much or how little medical treatment might benefit them when that benefit becomes small and the burden of treatment becomes high. People say gee if I have a limited amount of time to live and what you can do is extend my life by just a small bit of time me and I'm gonna have to go through all of that stuff. I would rather this time."

" That's the hemisphere Gunderson Lutheran hospital in lacrosse Wisconsin they pioneered the doctor and her life counseling program that. Lawmakers would like they'd like to require Medicare to reimburse doctors -- hospitals fourth such counseling program -- Let's -- answers fear that. Doctors may counseled patience to die -- Also later today at 9/11 culture firms used Bruce Springsteen's the rising to Denis Leary rescue me. Back after a break here now."

" Funding for here and now comes from the math works creators of -- lab and simulate technical computing software. Dedicated to accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science worldwide on the web at math works dot com."

" Welcome back to our conversation with but Hammond -- clinical ethicist and -- some Lutheran hospital in La Crosse, Wisconsin. His hospital testified before congress to encourage lawmakers to allow Medicare to pay doctors your hospitals. Four times spent counseling people on end of life. Decisions. But hospital as a pioneer in helping people draft and of life directives but -- You know these are not in in Europe planned government bureaucrats but responding to the fears that. They might still encourage people to limit here at the end of life."

" This is part of the training about how to separate one's own values. So's you know. The week we actually talked about in her training what if a patient says Q what would you do -- if you were me -- they were the typical response should be I'm not you. And what I'm interested is doing what you would want in this circumstance. So no real goal here is to explore and understand what's important to the patient in light of their medical condition. And the reasonable prospect that treatment we -- will not help. There are people who say I want that I don't care there's only a 1% chance that's what I want you to do that's what they're very interactive service."

" What do you say to people who live in the big cities who say couple things first of -- Your doctors at your hospital are salaried. Doctors who are fi base which is most of the doctors across the country. That's gonna cost a lot from Medicare to pay them for that hour where is your doctors are sounding. Also EU use a team approach where your doctors worked closely together and that also minimizes waste and many big city areas can't do that you go from hospital to hospital and see different specialists so your team approach also. Makes this an easy thing if you do. And also you know as a Washington Post put it. -- mid western town where people may be calling on a pragmatic German heritage. As it's been said. And may be more willing to do this."

" Yes well the first thing I'd say about that is the purpose of this is not to save money or to reduce utilization. And I don't know if this program were expanded to large metropolitan areas if it will reduce utilization of services. I think it made and how much it might or might not is really not a concern to me what I do know is patients. Everywhere near its states. Their wishes are not known and we are making treatment decisions for people who we don't know for making the right decision. I think that's a moral issue. I don't think as a health professional. A doctor should be doing something to a patient whose life expectancy is short for the treatment may not be a good thing in the patients -- unless. We know that is in fact with the patient want it. In my view there's really no excuse anywhere in the country. For us not having that information I mean if a doctor failed to ask the patient are you allergic to any medication. And we didn't know that and we didn't record that and we didn't follow. That information. That would be negligent I think it's actually negligent that we don't know what patient's wishes are particularly in the last stages of -- and we should. Take -- care in tailored to the individual. And not to some routine of care. Because that's just the way we do things -- because it. Generates more revenue or whatever the reason might be. The fact is that in most places we don't ask patients what they really want we don't inform them of what their choices are. And we don't help them make decisions that reflect their interest in their values and their goal."

" Reduce flux and we understand again -- post has reported extensively on this that. Officials at Gunnison hospital were upset when senator Charles Grassley who was not to be an ally in backing this provision was one who used the language. That this provision would mean pulling the plug on granma and he said that the provision should be dropped. Your thoughts on another politician who'd. Turned on the provision that's -- Newt Gingrich who's. Fun and law received treatment act Anderson and who previously praised the end of life care he got there."

" I believe it's and mr. Gingrich's opinion that. What has happened here granderson is good care and I think he experienced at personally."

" But he's one of those saying that this provision would mean a slippery slope to government bureaucrats. Telling. You what to do at the end of life and they're I don't believe it was a government bureaucrat tech guy Anderson."

" Correct so and mr. Gingrich seems to be opposed to the payment of positions for this particular service I just disagree with him I don't see that the government payment for that service would lead to any type of government intervention anymore then. When Medicare pays for open heart surgery or dialysis or any other treatment. That we think that the government is imposing itself simply because it pays for --"

" Willits and really began President Obama and -- the tongue lashing to people who have misrepresented this provision that again was pioneered at your hospital. But he didn't say unequivocally that it would stay and there are reports that it's going to go."

" I understand that were -- so reasons it may be politically untenable. And include this. Art of legislation in the healthcare reform bill. And I think American people need to decide about what what type of medical system that they want. And if they want a system that simply reimburses physicians for medical treatment and that's what positions will get paid to do. And they will have a density to focus their attention on the things they get paid to do. I would prefer a system that also. In place so but also pays positions. For taking time to actually talk with their patients explore what the patients values and goals are. So that we actually know on a regular routine basis when we face major crisis and we have to make major decisions on the patient's behalf. We actually know what that patient does want us to do and does not want us to --"

" Good question when use on this thing that is so popular in your town in your hospital has. Meant better and of life according to the patients. And also save money even though that's not vehicle when you first heard it referred to as the death panel what was your response."

" I guess my response was laughter the distortion you know the reality. And with so far off the mark. That it first made me laugh and that it made me sad. Because we now have patience and our town who have a fear which is unfounded but we now have to take time to address that -- before. They're willing or interested in doing the planning. Which has become. Well accepted as part of good here and."

" Good -- and stricter medical humanities it Gunderson Lutheran hospital in lacrosse Wisconsin but thank you so much for your time speaking today it has -- Okay quick look ahead at 9/11 tomorrow the speaker and author who will call his father and his childhood in the town that would have many 9/11 -- from test tomorrow. Second for the latest news here and now."

" President Obama's mideast envoy former senator George Mitchell. Horizon that region this week for meetings with the Israeli officials. Topping the agenda Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's decision this week. To allow hundreds of new Israeli homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem it's the first government approves settlement construction since Netanyahu came to power in March. It comes despite US pressure to halt settlement building. And Palestinians say the new settlements will jeopardize future peace talks Tim franks is the BBC correspondent in Jerusalem. Tim Chris can you explain the timing of this new settlement plan one now."

" There's plenty of speculation that in order for them to be a resumption all of talks between the Palestinians and the Israelis want the Israelis -- have to come up with some sort of temporary freeze in terms of at least the grunting all of commission. Four buildings new buildings on the West Bank to be constructed there's talk of -- being is suspension. Of maybe six months. As far as he's ready to consent now before that happens if that what's happened what these rates won't do his two grown some planning -- applications the settlers who live in these places -- that their population is growing apace and they desperately need these new houses I should say that. There's plenty construction goes on in any case in these places so. Some of these numbers have a have a slightly symbolic value."

" Also Netanyahu is allowed under a lot of pressure from both the settlers and this. Timeline to give out these. -- just give it to remind his briefly how many Israeli settlers are living in this area what's the history they're being now."

" Israel captured East Jerusalem and the West Bank up to the six day war of 1967. And it began to essentially these places which the rest the world regards has occupied territory and indeed international rule holds that sentiment -- Clinton -- treat. He's illegals Israel doesn't recognize that it has annexed East Jerusalem. And it has said that the terror tree in the West Bank is disputed not occupied. That notwithstanding. Israel has come under a lot of criticism for its settlements. And it's -- that about 500000. Jewish settlers now live in those two places. Do they see themselves as a -- as a place holder as a will work against Palestinians. -- great variety of views there at a loss of people inside today East Jerusalem Jews inciting streets and he would not regard themselves as assessed as a tool that want to Buffett whose economic session as they have not seeking a problem that way they live as long as they can afford to miss a moment. But Iran plenty of others who believe that they slammed in fact in a wave that is much more fundamental than the land. To the west. -- innovative and and Haifa and other big Israeli cities that are regarded as fully Israeli by the rest of the world. That the places -- living in the West Bank have much more biblical resonance for the Jewish people."

" President Obama has demanded a freeze on all settlement construction. The Obama administration is in China pushing for a meeting between prime minister Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. At the UN later this month. What is a settlement issue do all of that."

" There's no doubt that the Americans are very very keen to to push ahead with. Negotiations -- the tool possible that they have set behind -- they have set themselves. That he wants you stopped assessment activity that he's pushing these -- are. If -- Israelis push back it's going to be fascinating to see what the Americans too but let's not forget all this talk about sentiments is simply because the two sides. In a room it's not speak about solving the fundamental problems in the at least."

" Tim -- must question a column in the Los Angeles Times today says flat is planning for a Palestinian state. In two years regardless of toxic going and planning board. And they also say it'll be difficult for Hamas. Senator of the breakaway Palestinian group to reject that plan. Who yours your reaction to that."

" I think these things have to be dealt with a bit of caution but the same time it's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of Palestinians. The leaves of the -- cool and negotiate a Palestinian state is slipping away and indeed a lot of Israelis also believe. -- it isn't really -- nothing much left but the negotiated peace."

" It's the BBC's Tim frank speaking to us from Jerusalem Tim thank you so much. --"

" Winner -- your thoughts on this or anything on the program take a second to say you can go to here and now data -- And click on contact us to send email to scroll down and leave a comment right there. We'll be back in thirty seconds with a cultural landscape post nine elevenths. Here and now."

" Welcome back."

" Bruce Springsteen singing the rising from his 2002 album of the same name. Issued less than a year after the attacks of 9/11 killed nearly 3000. Bruce and he was inspired by reading in the New York Times portraits of grief profiles. It's so many of the victims of nine elevenths had been his fans so it's pretty obvious that his CD is part of the 9/11 culture. The toughness."

" This guy is all I mean this guy is bothering -- I'm pretty."

" You may have moved them."

" A scene from the 2005 animated film chicken little. Record our next guest that's illness the fullest expression of the post 9/11 father fantasy. A reassurance that fathers will be their for their sons even when the sky is falling. He when they couldn't be there on 9/11. -- melnick is associate professor of American studies at Babson College. His new book on the subject is called simply 9/11 culture. Jeff welcome back thanking. And -- idea across I have to ask really chicken Little -- month the animated film but are you reading two key to time it's an island."

" Don't think so the the thing that chicken little that I found so appealing was that it put its work right out front."

" The basic story in them this is a spoiler alert here so if you haven't seen it yet I'm sorry. And you view out there. The basic story is that the sky is falling. Unlike the original fable where it's just hysterical chicken who's worried about the sky falling here at the sky is falling but the damage is in permanent. It's just -- test for your -- character test is whether."

" He can rise to the challenge of being. Masculine enough."

" And whether his father will not just dismiss him as an hysterical chicken. Well actually believe him and come to help him piece that I need to and that's so reassuring because. And one of the things you -- new book is that post island father figures like fireman and policeman. Couldn't and this sense of helplessness of men in the wake of 9/11 is far more obvious in something like rescue me with Denis Leary."

" Absolutely that's a fascinating show that keeps wavering between this kind of hyper macho. Firefighter who talks trash constantly in the locker room about which women he's conquered. And on the other hand showing -- characters were just completely on done. But the trauma of 9/11 who just can't figure out how to move forward can't figure out how to be good fathers can't figure out how to be good husbands and so on."

" It's set in new York city fire station afternoon eleven let's listen to a scene you've analyzed so by the day and a ton of drinks -- late so I make my move get this. She shows she shuns you blows me off leaves and a half he believed she. We can't believe -- you -- a move which it would snipers hey Tommy let's get slower. Paula poodles get to 9/11 now must. People forget it. --"

" Well. You reliably connect and we did your post 9/11 that the I have to rescind all those women that are running down. Two -- rescue bar are gone. Right and in the show doesn't exactly know what to make of that if it's not clear that scene in -- like watching it with students can students are never clear on who's being made fun of."

" In that -- clearly did the woman from the night before is being made fun of on physical level."

" But but it's also obvious that the firefighters are being made fun of the notion that they deserve something in terms of the company of women after 9/11. Get away with that culturally now in densely does its hugely popular shock because. It would of being a sacrilege to say anything even mildly poking fun fire fire just after. Right it's gotta be Denis -- he's got a lot of money in the bank as far as firefighters are concerned well before."

" 9/11 and he he also waited just long enough one of the things a try to argue in the book. Is that there's there's space for something like rescue me -- in the year after 9/11 nine and two years after 9/11."

" But little by little -- some cracks in in what you're calling on the more or less sanctified culture fire fighters will."

" And that's a blatant a program about post 9/11. Cultured. -- residences of 9/11 in the PC television series lost this is the story of the plane crash survivors flashing back and forward in time. --"

" Well it. Really in the basic premise which is how do you live in the culture after the plane crash and that really is mind my whole concern with that show is who's going to be in charge. -- who listen to after the plane crashes. And -- waivers constantly between two to listen to the older more philosophical meant to be listened to the more action oriented young couple who you know feature so much in the first season in particular. The -- put a plane crash budget in the complaint. On screen and that's -- In the book went -- say is that obviously the movie united ninety threes -- 9/11 movie but so snakes on planes those great guys whose flight plans to plan an analyst really. Well I think any time in the in the few years after 9/11 that you put a major scene of anxiety and snakes on planes certainly fits the bill on were were talking about a culture. It's not the first time that we've been interested in you airplane crisis movies -- remember time in the 1970s. -- and that is really the result of the hijacking fears of the time. That much different but but certainly in in the a couple of years after 9/11 there was this rush to make airplane anxiety movies right."

" Well I'm thinking just thinking back to -- for a second this odd story of these people on an island only if there's also some wishful thinking mean. You know meeting in an analyst victims. -- from him in somewhere in some parallel reality."

" Right and that that that's absolutely true there there's kind of fantasy thereto which is that nobody got hurt in the crash it's kind of compensatory."

" In when the plane crashed a couple people die but we don't care about them because they don't turn you -- to Malaysia right. So we get to see the terrible crash and then we get to see these people starting all over again so whether they're really on an island somewhere not isn't as important and -- bright as the fantasy that life goes on brand new exciting complex way."

" What do you call it others who say that when we look at 9/11 culture it's something that is indelibly time stamped. Ninth twelfth and that was as you say we don't market airplanes the same way anywhere we just can't it's indelible exit. We know we have a different feeling. The day after nominal and so Bob Dylan's CD love and theft which came out on 9/11 in many people seat thinking here. Things about 9/11 in it. Can't beat -- was written before 9/11."

" Right absolutely but we don't hear it as written before -- because we can hear it till that day or later that day. Where the next there that we -- everything we hear about that record or GE c.'s original blueprint. Record which also came out on September 11 we now here could you concede that the whole cultural phenomenon of through these September 12 glasses."

" and there are a number of critics have rushed in to say he dealing he's he's profit what did he know."

" He know anything and not not more than he ever knew which is maybe everything. That it. But that's Dylan and and so we put this framework which is patent."

" Bob Dylan's sugar babies from that CDs love and theft again released on 9/11 eight years ago tomorrow. These in eight years of -- we're looking at 9/11 culture with Jeff -- of Babson College. You may remember that Doonesbury cartoon a white house press conference where the answer to every reporter's question about Iraq the deficit the environments. Was nine elevenths. And to our cultural questions as well Jeff says it is too many -- have more with him after break here --"

" And on the eve of September 11 was speaking with bats in college American studies professor Jeff melnick. But what he's calling 9/11 culture. He says it includes author Sherman Alexi short story flight patterns in which a native American character examines his complaints about the US. Don Phillips novel falling man which takes on that -- so taboo topic. Sculptor Eric financials 2002 peace tumbling woman with a woman tumbling head over heels. Also reminds us of those horrible image as an analyst and financial said he wasn't really about falling as much as floating but post 9/11 it was still too much. And his -- at Rockefeller plaza in New York was covered over after outreach complaints. -- just -- make you also talk about all the missing posters and -- snapshots that would put up immediately after and I am very moving that you say. Also people understanding in which you call the Internet two point zero culture. It's now their job to document life. It's one thing."

" Listening things about this 9/11 culture is that it was was everywhere it's in the center. Of the snapshot culture I really felt. Was was this unbelievable outpouring of folks saying I wanna have some missing here wanted to be in the game one of course there were. The rumors we're gonna put aside the conspiracy rumors but I would ask -- about the corporate sponsored rumors clearly cultural and the biggest had to be. Clear Channel Communications now this is the country's. Biggest radio station group owner. And the rumor was that they had a list of banned songs. They denied that they had the list of banned songs. I think yeah."

" Apparently the list was created by middle manager at a local radio station somewhere."

" And circulated widely and so clear channel quickly got in the business of the dining room. Rumor -- allow them to have a position as a good guy pretty quickly loud and it went up -- anything in one of their press releases it. We believe that radio is a local medium."

" Which is a funny thing for him to court again hinted yesterday and we're -- stations do what they want but that's and the list was everywhere."

" But it worked for them because rumors squashing web sites believed them so could count got to have the rumor and also got to. Inactive list and on the list with his strangest. Assortment yes there was -- fed raised Johnny Angel. Yeah."

" Okay. Everything okay."

" It was also John Lennon's imagine and any song by the group Rage Against The Machine this is 1992 is killings."

" Want to."

" Thrilled to have your cake EDT situation and one can understand me."

" Protecting listeners may be survivors families from songs that might remind them of 9/11 there's that. But they got to also -- songs on political they -- they tried to."

" But of course a few days after the lists circulated there was Neil Young on the big telephone -- his version of John Lennon's imagine."

" also point out that final Irvin didn't produce the same cultural experience for all Americans particularly sound. African Americans and native Americans. We have one song from Willie king it's his song terrorized from his 2002 album. Tells a little bit about your theory in how we're hearing here."

" you really keen to really interesting example he's someone who's not only blues singer but he's trained at the Highlander folk school. As a social activist and organizer -- he jumps in in this moment to to pick up on this key word terrorism he very quickly tries to redefine the word. On and ask his listeners to think about what the word terrorism or terrorized. Means for African."

" Yeah. A decision to its total. Room. All about me. Yeah it's. But you took -- And you know -- okay now and --"

" Yeah the rap artists parents one's -- more pointedly at 9/11 didn't happen to African Americans that have hunted them down the block for the -- powerful. Now others came forward like Muhammad -- on the telephone and say. No we're all in this together. But also the African American artists who reached out to groups face as replacing them is the new suspect group. -- that he was boon docks cartoon strip that announced that hate blacks aren't the most hated group in America anymore. So let's listen to bill where this is 2003 collaboration between rap artist Jason. And the British Indian artist -- Punjabi."

" So. Yes it must have the."

" You what it's a boy hopefully you. --"

" only computer Siemens African Americans actually reaching out to. People that now we're trusted less buying songs."

" American theaters this fascinating wave that stretches. Say roughly from 2003 to 2005 for a partisan jumping into this. And I took it as a real sign that African Americans weren't going to accept this rhetoric of being equal good minority group now."

" And these artists like Jay-Z. Unlike Erick sermon."

" Like the producer Timbaland and again and again reach -- to the sounds of South Asia and of the Middle East to say you know what were connected to these people."

" Well."

" Most disturbing images from Maryland. Was largely held back from Americans but eventually made its way into the culture in -- if you could not the only man. The horrible images of people falling or jumping from the trade towers. Yeah it's the culture deciding we're going to see that absolutely except now. It is the opening credits of many men are wildly popular -- about ninety -- advertisement. Shows. Sort of a cartoon of a businessman tumbling from the building -- own -- it's it's."

" Amazing how far we've come in five years -- on the -- you mentioned the mad -- image because folks have been talking about that opening sequence how wonderful the graphics. Are in -- you know it -- capture something about a couple Hitchcock movies and no one -- like those talking about how it says something about people jumping from buildings for clears after 9/11 you couldn't show an image."

" Of somebody jumping from building that was I don't want to censor there was more it was taboo."

" Who won in -- a higher one of the most heartbreaking treatments of that image we feel is author Jonathan sent from Ford's character Oscar. In -- 2005 book extremely loud and incredibly close Oscars in nine year old whose father died. In the towers he wants to know how in its original immunity and -- how is fireman died in in this reading. From -- for. Oscars just -- a person who tells him about a woman waitress who died in the towers as well."

" That's so weird to think about I said. What is -- that you worked there may be she knew my dad or not knew him that maybe she served in the morning he was there in the restaurant in a meeting. Maybe she refill the coffee or something. It's possible maybe they died together. Maybe they got up to the -- together -- on some of the pictures that people jumped together and held hands so maybe they did that. Maybe they just talked to each other until the building fell -- what they have talked about here obviously so different. Maybe total about me and wonder what he told her I couldn't tell how many field think about him holding somebody's hand."

" Just hard for taking -- in the in the book. Constitutional creates his own image of the falling mean. It's amazing there's a flip book at the very -- which is no one of the most of rudimentary forms of children's culture you know you take a bunch of pictures together. And you -- real fast and and they keep it again nation. And what Oscar creates is an an image of the falling and in reverse on the creates an image of the falling man sending. Child's eye view of a way out of this terrible conundrum of imagining jumpers after 9/11 to imagine that there's a moment a flight. To imagine."

" There's a moment of transcendence of the very. That's different known associate professor of American studies at bats with his new book is called -- 9/11 -- Jacki thanks so much thank you."

" There. Nice yeah. And then."

" Yeah."