Title: Here and Now for Friday, September 25, 2009

" Here now is a production of WBUR Boston in association with the BBC world service and PRI. I'm running young it here and now coming up a spate of arrests and alleged terrorism plot look at the latest on all three of them. But first that secret Iranian nuclear facility turns out. It wasn't so secret the US and other western intelligence officials have been tracking a -- in facility for years. When an Iranian leaders found out they'd been found out they sent a letter to UN inspectors acknowledging the plant. That was earlier this week today the G-20 economic summit went off topic as President Obama decided to make the affair public. And challenge Iran to fully disclose its nuclear program. Jim Walsh is an international security expert at MIT he's in New York though where last night. He attended an Iranian government dinner with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Jim this was before today's news so Ahmadinejad I was sitting on a secret. How did he seem to you."

" Will -- with the port one of these -- attended. This one again a three hour marathon and and let's say he was different from any of the other three that I've I've gone to these last several years. He was not the combative LaMont -- Jody was not that. Lecturing her professorial Obama -- any job he was much softer tone. He did not. Talk about the Holocaust talk about Israel even though he was asked about those topics he did not go off on them as he had in years past. And so positive things about the upcoming a nuclear negotiations it was very different commodity jumped nineteen in the past."

" What do you think that is I'm I'm I'm banner and I mean -- it several interviews with western reporters this week in one with -- morning edition. Within a spate of fifteen seconds he said the Holocaust with an it was an historical event and answer didn't exist. So why why why do you think there was a different tone."

" Well you know I wish I knew it -- understood that I I could probably make a lot of money. But I I don't I'm not a psychologist and I can't say but I think in the end. The behavior will approve one theory right or wrong what they do in these upcoming talks. That begin October 1 that will -- a lot about what he was thinking this past week."

" Will infect the talks are next week members of the UN Security Council and Germany and Iran will be meeting to talk with Iran about its nuclear program a lot of drumbeat. Leading up to this now of course this disclosure just one week before here's -- President Obama today said about those upcoming talks."

" At that meeting Iran must be prepared to cooperate fully and comprehensively with -- EI a day. To take concrete steps to create confidence and transparency. In its nuclear program and to demonstrate that it is committed to establishing. It's peaceful intentions through meaningful dialogue and concrete actions."

" Jim Walsh you've studied there and deeply again you're not a psychologist. But here we have. The Iranian government perhaps backed into a corner in that they've been told not only do we do we know you've not been transparent. We've known for years you haven't been transparent effect you said this week. And at the UN that you cooperated fully with the inspectors and we're telling you. And we know that's a lie in you're. Mine what does what does that mean. For how Iran might react next week."

" Well you know to cut but two -- Robin obviously they may. Withdraw. That is to say they may feel defensive and feel like they can't. Engage in negotiation that there and so position of weakness. And and their work are going to be real reluctant to negotiate but. I think you know ironically there's some good news here. If you look back -- history. In 2003. When we first discovered some of these facilities in Iran and that's when we got a suspension of uranium enrichment that's when negotiations actually made some progress. And you think of the -- case when Libya was negotiating with the US and Britain. On it nuclear program in the middle those negotiations we caught -- ship. That was filled with centrifuge parts and it was not long after that that negotiations concluded successfully so it may break in our favor. In any case I think it shows that the US government and western intelligence. It is pretty skilled and should give us confidence going forward regardless of what direction we go."

" Intelligence seems to be seen today were going to be turning and just a minute to an alleged terrorism plots that have been revealed a spate of -- But we we want to rush to say that irrelevant saying that this previously secret. Plant. Was just being used to produce electricity."

" Yeah our people one thing about -- since they notified the international atomic energy agency the IAEA earlier this week about -- they notified the on Monday. You can bet your bottom dollar that -- it will be there -- very soon will look at every inch of that facility. And then they're gonna report back to not only via. Member states of the IAEA but we're gonna get a copy of that report we're gonna show a heck of a lot more about it in about a couple weeks or months time than we do right now."

" And of the way president Sarkozy of France said that Iran has a deadline of two months. To comply with international demands remind us from -- what the or what is."

" Well you know already Iran is subject to both international sanctions through the UN inspections -- individual countries. Put on Iran and the threat is that those sanctions will be increased and there's been all sorts of ideas floated about -- what particular sanctions might be imposed. But I think it's important to remember here that sanctions alone are not gonna result that's. Iran has been. Under sanctions of one kind or another since the revolution going back thirty years in 1979. And they're not the sort of the country there are very proud country and they're not the sort of country to say well. You know you sanctioned this so we're gonna wave the white flag and give in and capitulate so sections are gonna be part of the answer. But to rely only on sanctions. You're not gonna get what you what you want so it has to be combined with diplomacy and other instruments -- we have to. If we have any hope of success here."

" Jim -- international security expert at MIT. On today's story that Iran has revealed that it had a secret. Nuclear plant in their that are and says is just for production electricity. Jim thanks so much for speaking -- around. Well now let's turn to those alleged terrorism cases federal authorities say two men in two different cities try to detonate what they thought were bombs. In one case to blow up an ill Illinois courthouse and also take out the office of a congressman. In the other -- take down a Texas skyscraper. Both men were caught in FBI sting operations the men were not connected to each other and they are also not connected to the alleged terrorist plot in New York City and Denver. By at Denver Colorado man we'll have more details on that case in a moment but first. Let's turn Evan Perez of The Wall Street Journal for the latest on the Illinois and Texas cases 71 well. Do you have some -- thought about how many of these cases we've heard about just this week."

" There was good -- to -- coming a mile a minute and according to the law enforcement people we talked to it appears to be in mostly coincidence. Indicate is that we heard about yesterday in New -- In Dallas and Springfield Illinois there was a a larger FBI sting that was working these cases. The two men that were arrested and charged yesterday were not aware of each other but it was a larger sting operation that the FBI was running."

" But we understand it the Springfield arrest actually occurred on Wednesday that they held -- talking about it so as not to alert the man in Dallas let's start in Springfield. We're seeing pictures from Michael sentence FaceBook government had in his twenty -- when nine. He converted to Islam in prison authorities worked with an informant has set up this sting. What do they say -- plan to do."

" They -- this -- and was planning to detonated a truck bomb at a federal building in Springfield and that that essentially he was talking to an informant who even knows what this has been worked the FBI. Helping to organize his slot which he tried to carry out of went in the scary part of his case is that if he really thought he was about to detonate a bomb at a federal building."

" Well actually -- in the cellphone and told him when he dial in number it would it would detonate."

" That is correct and what it didn't work he did it again and so. That is one of the most remarkable pieces of that story is that you know he actually thought this is a plot that was about to be -- fruition."

" And we understand that both informant and the authorities that were working undercover. Told -- that Sarah on several occasions that he didn't have to go through this but he he wanted to why did authorities start following him in the first place."

" Authorities said that he was in prison and apparently converted to Islam lot of what he was imprisoned. And upon exiting they conducted an interview with him and in which he described that he was an admirer of John -- man who's known as the American palate. You know that's one -- to promote their first attention to him. Later on there's a informants attempts the FBI and and describes some concern that raises more flags about sends."

" Well and a parole officer also reportedly found a letter. That he Michael -- had written to John Wacom and -- suspicious that he was being watched by police -- an email to congressman nine months ago. Complain that his phone was being -- he said to the informant well this might all be just to set up but he still seemed to go. Through --"

" That's right and and one of the things that authorities found is that you know apparently didn't see out here receives funds. To travel to Saudi Arabia these are hoping that -- markers that raise more alarm Ford -- the federal authorities over interest in him."

" the money that -- received from Saudi Arabia was allegedly from a wealthy man to go potentially marry someone it's a very bizarre story. We wanted to turn to the second one though Hussein's -- and nineteen year old Jordanian citizen. Was arrested yesterday after allegedly tried to blow up the sixty story fountain place tower in downtown Dallas authorities there say it seemed like. Somewhat the same stories undercover agents worked with him and he was ready to detonate a car bomb."

" That's right and in his case -- gets -- and they came across him in an online chat room where she was talking among other extremists. Suspected extremists and they were concerned particularly about the thought that that he was expressing. As some of the anger he was expressing and his desire to carry out Jihad in United States. It's notable that he is the Jordanian citizen he is living in Texas illegally. What the authorities. Decided to look into him further they've found some of what he was saying to informants and undercover agents particularly alarming and that is what led them to try to bring this forward."

" That's its money living outside Dallas and then we'll have Michael Fenton. Now living in Springfield -- to and converted in jail to Islam and was radicalized. Smile he authorities don't know why he was here or -- he does -- have any family connections here. Which is there a sense that either man could have pulled off either of these plots by themselves without the undercover agents."

" Yeah that's not really clear and into what I think that the FBI has come under criticism for some of these cases that have come forward since 9/11 is that. There's a lot of criticism that sometimes these characters are perhaps just -- people who. Without the help of an undercover agent undercover informant. Would not necessarily know how to carry out any any actions of their targets in other what their ass operational. Terrorist threats not necessarily somebody who could actually do harm. But the authorities I think would argue that and they do argue that it's very important to try to cut these things early on and if somebody who really has the intention of trying to figure this -- they'd rather. Find this out through an informant rather than perhaps hooking up with someone on the Internet and actually doing it."

" Well imagine how many cases there have been and we haven't even noted two men in North Carolina who were accused last July of international terrorism. Where accused today by prosecutors have also plotting to kill US military personnel. And a group of men is being accused of traveling to Pakistan to get al-Qaeda training that reported New York Times. So it does seem as if there's an awful lot going on do people tell you that this indicates. Better intelligence better surveillance or. Some sort of increase in these kinds of activities."

" There was a lot more -- it and still keep in mind if we're talking about a month where it is in the -- September 11. There was world leaders gathering at the UN this past week. And then the G-20 so there's a lot more alarmed for the authorities there are a lot more attentive. That's I mean there's definitely a whole host of threats that there entity to investigate and they try to figure out. Went to bring them forward and it's always sort of you have to do when it is safe to try to move on some of these people that they they're watching at all times."

" And the present the most feature and the thing is always. Well just ahead we'll have the latest on the case analysts say is the most serious. Authorities say an Afghan man in Colorado did not need undercover agents to build a bomb for him he was -- the -- of beauty supply stores to build -- himself. Later today economist Simon Johnson he's been watching the G-20 economic summit he says don't get your hopes. Back after break here and now."

" Funding for here and now comes from the math works creators of -- lab and simulate technical computing software. Dedicated to accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science worldwide. On the web at math works dot com."

" Welcome back we've been talking about the series of alleged terrorism arrests. In Dallas Texas Springfield Illinois and of course in Denver and New York where Afghan board. Ninety -- he is accused in a bomb plot -- a judging Colorado has just ordered he T be transferred from Denver to New York to face charges there. Investigators say his case is one of the most significant terror threats to the US since nine elevenths. James Gordon -- is national security report of the New York Daily News James who wanna talk to about the New York case. But you've also been speaking with -- your sources in the Justice Department about those cases in Springfield and Dallas two suspects caught by undercover agents. -- speculate those cases surfaced now."

" There's cases happened -- because. Apparently the suspects wanted to blow up their respective target's car bombs grew -- in the summer but then they decided that it would be better to wait. Hold off and left rubble though which just ended so therefore you have these does suddenly -- what they did. And -- coincidental."

" Well it also speaks to the different nature of those cases we understand authorities have been following both suspect in Springfield and Texas for quite some time now. Whereas his -- Seem to be plowing ahead with his plot and authorities had to figure out when to stop him now. And today there's eerie footage on CNN -- shopping in the aisles of the Denver area beauty supply house. And the indictment unsealed yesterday says he and other unidentified conspirators. But hydrogen peroxide nova chemicals needed to make homemade bombs. He tried to mix the chemicals in the Denver area hotels but couldn't even. Calling associates for help -- to try to help them. So what are some of the questions that you have given what we are now learning from these unsealed. Documents."

" Well welcome to the fact these guys went shopping. You know further up beauty shop bombs real question that's remaining doubt there is. Where's the stuff today actually make Bob more or a small version of the bomb test. Light it off somewhere where there's also took the material that they brought. Other investors haven't found it yet they found some some Trace evidence of chemical residue and a hotel room it's -- Rented -- and Colorado where -- which was equipped with a kitchen and and stove burners. And they found that its series of evidence that it makes some chemical on the stove. Two presumably make some credible bomb debate they haven't found anything either New York. Or Colorado he also was things stores in New York -- social so -- did did don't shopping trips there's so."

" And and they have the records of the store saying that they sold huge quantities of hydrogen peroxide and he says they have been. The footage and very chatty as sales clerks. But I morning if the other question it is raised is whenever these associates. The affidavit constantly refers to is Ozzie and others really others are."

" Well I'm trying to figure that part out what I've been told us of people back him up a lot of people would question. But whether or not it just started -- terrorists that's not so clear to me at this point there's three people who. Well on the shopping trip with them. And Colorado. And there are some other associates who may have made out of that shopping trip in Colorado. Influence starting. Just a little over a year ago. From New York City to -- system where he received training and weapons and explosives. According to result in addition -- the FBI. In the travelers' pockets. And and returned here. We're as -- January after spending you know partnership's sponsor."

" Let's review to and if those who have been following the stories Ozzie. Came into the US from Afghanistan in 1999 lead to illegally ran a coffee cart in New York worked as an airport shuttle driver in Denver. And she says has admitted to training in camp in Pakistan where his wife Liz. Last year and the discarded go to New York police on details on how to make up on the computer he left behind the car. But authorities were following him. You know before long before that car trip do we know why I mean when did when they first pick up funds he why are they following him."

" Well we're very close reporting here actually a question Robin I I think it's it's. Well no doubt. This was an intelligence operation originally and you know the you know earlier this case for a lot of doubts and so there's -- story -- here because they're kind of testing it was like just sevens what to terrorist throws and those guys. Hardworking coffee push cart driver. Now we're seeing more or not all the debate though but we're seeing more of what -- know there's a lot of detail about. The specific types of explosives to -- TP. That he was good looking at which sort of what was used and that the London train bombing attacks. They have communications intercepts of of -- was frantically trying to. Sort of horrendous formula when he was in Colorado to make. You know ballclub. So to have quite a lot of evidence against the sky now we know the -- People in the FBI were so spooked as they told me earlier in the sitting in water from the government devoted unprecedented resources. To this case. The biggest case of eleven. Contested her new missile and al-Qaeda itself they believe."

" Well. Just aren't touch on a controversy -- on the case as does he was arrested after the who'd also been working with authorities. -- that he was under surveillance. The reports are that the feds were angry at the new York city police for approaching. But seeing their investigation of mine have gone further and found out more may be found out who these associates. Our. You know our question is. What is your sense of feel good the stage of intelligence given that. Controversy. But also why even get out on bail if he tipped off --"

" I don't think even mom is all about what to do is just -- reducing to have several questions about this fellow. I don't think usually viewed as being a potential terrorism in the -- probably is. -- Criminally. --"

" Do you think you would have known more if the investigation had gone on if it hadn't been blown."

" I absolutely have to do FBI unquestionably wanted to know more about exactly who his associates work. What they're planning whatever planet which is different -- New York City I think -- NYPD -- felt like they needed to put the blood on his neck."

" That's James Gordon -- national security reporter. For the New York Daily News will continue to follow this story. We'll put you know next week on here and now we'll look at health care reform and women women have less insurance and then -- pay more when they do have it. We'll take a look at sports conspiracies did the patriots -- let's just sit back. That's next week back after the latest news here --"

" T -- a long time to get an appointment with your doctor. The health care research firm Merritt Hawkins and associates study more than a dozen cities and found that the average wait time this year primary care physician is about twenty Denise. And that has a lot of patients turning to what are called retail health clinics. There's been a tenfold increase in the number of these clinics since 2006 though that means there's still only around thousand. These lock in medical clinics are located in shopping malls big boxer drug stores they're owned by stores like CVS and target. And a new study shows that they may actually be cheaper than a doctor's office without sacrificing quality care. After a -- narrow track is -- author of that study that a nonprofit Rand Corp. he's also a professor at the university of Pittsburgh medical school. Document -- trying to tell us first about the clinics who steps them and what they treat."

" These is that typically staffed by nurse practitioners and that is our. At the white in both states to practice independently. That's typically managed. Simple acute problem that's ear infection. You're great tract infections. If your words you might have strep throat. They're also upgrade that you could go to or if you needed any kind of immunity isn't likely. They are offered technical physical."

" And they're walking you go in and unemployment seven days a week you study CBS mini clinics in Minnesota. And you looked at three common complaints sore throat urinary tract infections and hearing. What did you find about the quality care."

" I think it had been concerned about these critics regarding the quality of care and protect that the American academy of pediatrics. What we did -- we compared security but it to doctors' offices. Walking -- urgent care center or persons department and what we found what that the quality care with very similar between that we and it and the doctor's offices. But what the price."

" Well and less expensive over the some of the costs."

" the cost stated we found where that. Total costs and that includes your description that he has been invited to where about thirty to 40% cheaper at the -- credit. -- to the doctor's offices and about 80% cheaper compared to divert it department's."

" Well and you say the American academy of pediatrics are skeptical of these walking clinics and they're still skeptical last year study they say. The study just looked at three symptoms. And is based in only one state but more the point. Patients are at risk when they seek services from health care provider who's not familiar with their medical history your health risks that there's sort of no continuity there's no doctors there. And and also -- a question of what happens when someone comes in and they don't feel on they turn it turns -- they have internal bleeding you can't rush them on a -- all."

" Well I think that what is the concern that's been raised by the that this community is regarding the issue of continuity of care. We note that having a primary care provider and more primary care to community that that it better outcome. And though I think in that particular issue is something to be addressed about a year if you go to what do these -- you're going to give provider. I -- I can't wait time to get to be your primary care doctors especially places like Massachusetts. Where people look re really -- this sort of primary care doctors they don't really have another option. -- often the other option is to go to university department. Yet what I would make is that at the patient what to go to one of it I think I would argue that they should try to make sure that the records go from the clinic. Two other primary care that this. Instead of all the way back those records over."

" Well another concern is that since their -- pleasantly pharmacies like CBS. They might over prescribe to drive people to the pharmacy counter."

" Yeah I think that is something that had been raised it by age okay that makes sense because that they are for profit companies they have pharmacy -- But we really get a look at the numbers which we did a study. We no -- over prescribing we found anabolic prescribing Hillary would equal lower that you -- in the other scarcity."

" So doctor. We do -- to a walk in minute clinic."

" I haven't had yet to but I would have no problem but my wife is gone and I would -- like it there expert and I empathize. Not for everything got back I would take my children error -- I would not recommend my wife goes there. For a complicated problem vote for a simple acute problem we have a -- lies at the heart carve out time to. Take a doctor at the data -- it doctor."

" That's doctor Petit wrote trap a professor at the university of Pittsburgh medical school also a policy analyst at the Rand Corp. Their study just gave it a pretty clean bill of health to retail health clinics. Doctor thank you. He's just ahead to teach Chinese leaders meeting in Pittsburgh -- to the curb executive pay their deregulate banks -- things -- right. Why don't I think an economist Simon Johnson is going to say it wrong he's next in thirty seconds here and."

" Leaders of the world's twenty major economies are meeting in Pittsburgh today and reportedly close to agreement that. Nations will agree to a kind of international board of directors. That they'll toughen rules against tax havens that they'll regulate -- and require banks to keep more capital on hand against possible future losses. Sounds pretty good right economists in -- ninety professor Simon Johnson is also senior fellow at the Peterson institute for international economics. He joins us now Simon welcome back in. Don't."

" I would that's the point -- and it's it's a PR exercise you know it it. Having said and and we all know of course we narrowly avoided having a second Great Depression. At these economic and and political leaders content and say well we're not gonna do anything that there's SA always gonna fix these problems were gonna do these things. And in terms of the direction of change they've got the sign right but it switches all it would with the proposed in terms of capital for banks it would be insignificant and inconsequential."

" capital in banks to insure against -- as the thinking that bankers who are making all of the short term bets instead of -- long term and leveraging and getting into debt and they didn't have the cash when they needed it. What about the idea of perhaps in this was floated I don't know what they're saying that perhaps tying. Executive -- to more capital I mean isn't that. Managing in the right direction would you most recently that."

" I think nudging in the right direction is about right. I what I'd like to see a much more dramatic moves and I and I think I would close a cushion on executive pay. That's a symptom not a underlying cause underlying causes electric capital in the bank system that lets them take these massive irresponsible risks and when he goes wrong they can stick the tax pay with a -- So that's what he should be addressing if you go after executive pay the mode main thing you'll do is you create a work for very smart lawyers and accountants will find new ways to avoid that the restrictions whenever they are that you put on executive pay. Let's go for the underlying core."

" So little would you like to see I mean you say what they're doing is too little in capital which currency."

" Well I think Iran and if you if you go back and you look at how that US bank system used to operate last time it was in a wildly irresponsible phase and -- also people would not shall that would be bail outs I'm hoping it would be bail --"

" The banks -- back then carried a lot more capital than they do now bank capital."

" It is really think this lake is really the cushion that you have a provide our shareholders to prevent. Taxpayers from losing money and that's just like a good idea given how much money we just lost as taxpayers. Now back -- before 1930 final before 1913. US banks had 234. Times as much capital as you put if you put on a comparable basis as banks today that's a lot more. Then they wanna carry that's a lot more than this administration all the G-20 is going to propose because have bankers have gotten used to betting on that money and using it on Wall Street that."

" I give what would you want a requirement that he you know what's the -- support. Capital or else."

" What I want to higher cap requirements more mandating capital across the board in all the activities these these banks and engage in a nobody tomorrow it can be phased in so it's not disruptive. But in less -- banking safer from a taxpayer point of view you -- repeat exactly the same kind of nonsense -- crash crisis. Knelt down as as we've just -- what will you."

" Say we've learned three lessons from that the crash. There -- financial system has become dangerous and refer Becton capital that the miss manage it it was not accidental and that the real -- to regulation and made it all possible was not a mistake. You say this all came from the cozy relation between Wall Street and Washington now a lot of people have had said that but what we proposed to change that."

" Well that's obviously a tough one particularly with campaign contribution or as it is and the Supreme Court. Think you can't limit the contributions from from big corporations. If you make a lot of money to plowed back into politics and that's a lot of people house financial services committee in the Senate banking committee get get very big contributions from the industry. You know I think you have to talk about that yet but affront to -- to you gotta find ways to limit that perhaps shift amend the constitution to be frank to limit those campaign -- contributions. I think you also have to jam this revolving door between Wall Street and Washington I would not let people walk out of a failing Wall Street -- one day and the next day be in charge of the bailout program for saving that for them and -- for."

" And -- and doesn't make any -- telling you point out that when President Obama and FEMA scolded Wall Street yesterday in his address in New York. Not a single chief executive of a major American -- there."

" Is that what that was a week ago on Monday that was his big speech. That that was you know him showing up and -- get a good job on the diagnosis I still think that the forward looking -- of of what -- prisons is pretty lame but in terms of diagnosis he said you know it's the fault of the financial such in the way it's structured. And not the big bank is came to even hit that they could even hang that they head in mock shame for an hour."

" And -- as well so there's attitude there's relationships. What are some of the issues that that others attribute to. -- this huge problem including the trade imbalance this idea that we need to rebalance global growth. Getting Americans to save more and by less. Getting the Chinese to save less and buying -- we -- hearing stories about how the Chinese. You don't have a Social Security programs and they hold on the money meanwhile the country sells everything to Americans who gobble it up. What can you what do what would you like to see come out of the summit to try to correct that imbalance."

" This is smokescreen Robin pure and simple okay this is very very little perhaps nothing to do with that the crisis to crisis about financial sector. Irresponsible risk taking yes there's something of an imbalance in the global economy. That what you're discussing which is more savings by the byte by US households would be a good idea if we don't say much on average in the last two decades by the way. And and -- saving more. Spending more domestic spending by China would be a good idea that the -- not gonna change that those are gonna be outcomes of the domestic processes in those economies. They're trying to up. You know say oh it wasn't -- it was the fault of some broad global process or and quite this -- it was -- to the Chinese that the -- PS military its financial regulations financial sector irresponsibility and unless and until we fix that in the United States would not gonna get a stable economy back again."

" Well and is for the next minute and forty seconds Simon Johnson you rule the world. You've already said more requirements for capital less cozy relationships between Wall Street and Washington what else would you like to --"

" I don't think it takes a minute and 47 and amounted to make those points is very simple the financial sector has become -- I'm not against finance and not against being able to connects favors a Boris oppressor of ownership and MIT I. I'm very supportive of venture capital I like it when people take risks I think. Non financial innovation is is absent the cornerstone of this economy how we go to this point and and how will do good things going forward. But a lot of what is called financial innovation is not really the same thing. As new iPods and and and new ways of of organizing. -- delivery of consumer goods if financial inflation much of it is is pure speculation some of the things finest as is good some of the kinds of risk hedging makes sense but you have to wait. That the positives against the negatives and the negatives are they get that come around these huge bailouts. Periodically and quite frequently. And those they -- to getting -- This is very damaging would it take debt a debt to GDP demanded money that the government -- the private sector is gonna go from 40% of GDP 80% of GDP that's a big increase in my -- Texas not Childress Texas full so the financial sector can have more fun at -- and I'd have a big bonuses of -- islands. I don't that's a good -- going."

" Oh sending Johnson senior fellow at the Peterson institute for international economics and as he says professor and ninety. And also are the authors of the blood the baseline scenario dot com we'll connected with site. Simon professor thanks -- always. Always put. Just ahead revisiting the big book and -- on account you're listening to him now."

" Support for here and now comes in part from the school foundation supporting social entrepreneurs around the world. Uncommon heroes dedicated to the common good. Learn more at school dot org."

" Welcome back and such held a novel about a young Wisconsin man that took the book world by storm when it first came out. Is now out in paperback which means if a little easier to cart around. Other data of -- booked his first is 600 pages long and every one of them is mesmerizing. He -- the story of the teenage -- who can hear it but can't speak and is born into a Wisconsin family that trains dogs. Anger describes his earliest memory an infant's view from the clip of -- the few sleep loyal family dog knows first."

" Black knows -- of nostrils flexing with each -- A breeze charges up the field until as the curtains inward. The apple tree near the kitchen window crescent that house with a -- ticket he -- As slowly as he can't he exhaled feigning sleep but despite himself his breath hitches. At once the Muslim knows he is awake. Its north. -- left and right. With drugs. Outside the crib omen -- four quarters appeared. Her head -- reared back her ears cocked forward. -- cherry Brandel I peers back."

" Him. Into Edgar -- town's idyllic life comes his uncle client. Went Edgar's father suddenly dies and you suspect his uncle but his attempts to prove -- terribly wrong he flees with the family dogs into the Wisconsin wilderness. And -- hotel has been called an American Hamlet girls at shades of king Lear as well as -- little old healer. As empress hotel is not pavement we thought we'd share again our conversation went -- to data from the ski. What a world the ruler of black we -- reasons and deep gazes between men an animal in dark wit Wisconsin forest is in the world to from the."

" It is I grew up in central Wisconsin. -- and -- tells farm. Is in fact the farm I grew up on and the dawn she knows where you're -- trained talks. My family had a dog kennel for about five years from about the time I was five years old until I was ten. Mean they'll work with the pops. Socializing them doing very simple kinds of training with them."

" details it is now an anchor who's now training a pumps and signing to them. -- creates a language that his family and schoolmates and to stand. Some people don't and that becomes critical that story points that. Why did you decide to rob anger of his speaking voice."

" I was interested in -- fictional situation. In which someone is denied a certain facility with language because it happened to me at one point in my life side. As a result of very minor oral surgery I spent a few days -- talking in what I discovered was you become more observant and I -- That would be an interesting feature for a character to have to have them replace verbal ability with. Sort of hyper observant abilities and it automatically makes -- more like a dollar. Certainly I think because he grew up around them. Some of his natural ability toward language and I do think of him as a sort of prodigy of with language gets channeled into observing the dogs. And communicating with them in the way that. -- know how to communicate which is based on body language and eye contact in -- demonstrative way around then using words."

" It's a deep communication again the dogs the sort of a Greek chorus throughout observing human. You're nodding yes yes that's period you also create another fictional story in the book. I'm drawing on the real 1934 classic working dogs by -- and -- in Warner. And your discovers the truth of all the glitters exchanges between his grandfather Andy's -- researchers. At a debate that they were having. We're still real debate at the time between whether or not Don she'd just be raised to be working dogs or whether as the -- tells the -- These dogs could have compassion and be human companions was -- a real debate at the time I don't think it was debates so much."

" As a accidental division among breeders that fortune -- program which was documented in the book working dogs. Was an attempt to breed dogs and that in -- phrase that they use in the book is. An attempt to previous strain of dogs which were peculiarly able to profit by instruction. And I was I was fascinated by that expression."

" You don't heavily from the real fortunate field's work with these dogs to what set up this conversation about the site tell goal which -- is. Have dogs that you're. More human more connected."

" John -- tell who is Edgar's grandfather. His idea was to raise dogs for companionship the way service dogs are raised to do service work and to take. Idea of companionship. As seriously as any other kind of serious work in a dog can do."

" Sweet taste of that history we see -- doing extraordinary training with his -- Then we have to go to the other strain that's about the book the Shakespearean overtones of Hamlet of course -- his mother's Trudy. -- turned and Hamlet his uncle is -- Claudius the original idea for the book was to try and draw from Hamlin not -- talent. There are elements that are drawn from other planes their witches here yes there's mysticism there. Shape -- is that what -- called -- a creature that forms out of green."

" of their firms out of rain and just a fantastic. Although I see that in Shakespeare everywhere of course main -- of Shakespeare. Particularly draw on. The elements as these enormous forces that not only shape people's lives but manifest themselves very tangible. Huge storms that are crashing down around characters as they're walking on and he concealment. In as a farm kid I you know I grew up exposed to elements in the way that farm people -- I've spent many afternoons. Standing in the basement waiting for storms to go over. -- because we thought there was going to be a tornado. And so. Particularly the aspect of whether as a manifests the sort of fantastic and magnificent. Struck a chord in me from the stories."

" Other reviewers have -- that we wanna say that. You know if you. Our family was Shakespeare you pick up on the story lines but USA to their rights it's that kind of knowledge that my mother a tenth grade dropout would have learned -- read much. But when she got hold of the -- whose characters caught her imagination. She would endlessly talked about the music as if they lived next door to her all the lines but still he is not lassie. You know it's dishes and dark dark green with dark passages he generally nine you know dog fighting generations ago in the family and yes. -- to learn it -- so harmful. Standing and watching. Human folly hands -- you hearing from people."

" It's off not put into these words that this is what I take away is that people recognize that. For dogs they're relationship with human beings is usually a matter of life and death for them if they don't get -- right they're not going to list. And I wanted to write a story in which the stakes were equally high for the people and the dogs. And I think that's one thing that people respond to understand and recognize that."

" That you wouldn't Ellison -- hundred people in you're a former felt pretty well reviewing stand up. Yeah we you have a software developer who always. We don't -- an author inside him and you're just doing that."

" Well I've been making suffered for her thirty years at this point and -- and I love it it's incredibly creative work. So I don't draw a distinction in my mind between making software and making fiction. They're making their creative acts how insists. -- last month and he delivered -- so talent to the world. Me anything about letting go he -- me. It's very hard for me to not continue to edit the book. I finally had to rearrange my office entirely take everything down off the -- to move everything around so that. I can get started on the next book and I miss him that's the truth he's a character whose mind I enjoyed. Being in signs."