Title: Inside Afghanistan: President Karzai Post Taliban

" This is neo -- and before you listened to your part services like this podcast wouldn't be possible. Without your help please support your public radio station."

" bow. To anyone who puts their life on the line to bring us this news and there's a certain crop. Names come denying any new Abbas. Who who is one and Sarah chase is the other one who not only. They go beyond the pack mentality see me live with the people they as the Sarah did just like command. In Afghanistan to get the news so that's who we're here to learn from tonight and how fitting it is I think. That we're here. On nine elevenths. Five years actors and the launch of the war against terrorism about a month. From today five years ago with someone who was there as that war room was plunged in Afghanistan and how interesting it is to me that it's. -- that we are here waited because as she writes she was one of the pack of reporters lying to getting to Kandahar. To watch the Taliban fall. And then she was one of the few who realize that they were missing the real story which was the rise of the warlords. And how really interesting it is to me to read in her incredible new book the punishment of virtue. That one of the reasons. That we didn't hear more about that story after Sarah realized that the pack of journalists was missing it is that our network and PR. Didn't let her report a lot of it and I'm hoping we hear more from her about that tonight because that is very disturbing to read. We see the consequences of that today just stand here and now. We reported on president Hamid Karzai's belated attempts. To replace some of the warlords that he put in power several years ago with educated. Leaders. Afghanistan. And one of them his very close friend was assassinated on Sunday by a suicide bomber suicide bombs have tripled over the last year in Afghanistan. And all like that picture when I read that news on Sunday was his image that I had a Sarah chase throughout her book. Throughout her reporting from Afghanistan in the early days -- warned there. It was an an image in the country in my mind not when it's described but -- her grabbing the panels of anyone who would listen sometimes across at the via phone to. The end -- networks. Back in Washington. Shaking their -- saying it's still warlords stupid. And today we see the consequences of people neglecting that message. So Cheney's. You just hear it for days and beyond. I did it's it's -- with Sylvia Poggioli is grenades that I just used to love to hear it and made it she said it. And we love playing she would come to visit. And WBUR. Her reporting with so distinguished -- her wardrobe became more so as he stated you had -- and you know things made out of native fighters and but it was it -- which he said Sarah was an overseas correspondent for NPR from 19972002. She reported from Paris that there. Reported it from the Balkans. During the Kosovo crisis she along with the team from NPR when major awards including a 9999. Form press club in -- Ohio awards. And then -- usage he was sent to Afghanistan in 2001. And from there as one of my colleagues at W viewers that today he -- and then she really went off the branches. She did. She. Had Tiffany's and I'm sure she's gonna share with us. But down a microphone took up unit humanitarian work. Learned a lot about that I think the hard way and -- upon issue this. And now she runs another company and artisan and agribusiness company called I didn't -- Hanson net and she just returned from Afghanistan about a month ago is going back. And I hope tells us more about life and also insists the questions some of us. Had which is you know when. Do you think you might have gone too far because in addition to being humanitarian. And witness to what was going on she became an impassioned advocate. To a certain point of view and almost ultimately a one woman and to see annex. It's firing off letters to president -- 82. Killer. Former. Warlords now governors with their own militias you know is scared that academy just reading about it too. Congress and in Washington. Trying to get across her message of how. She thought. The worn tires and had been derailed in Afghanistan and he served raises a lot of questions about. You know when you too enmeshed with the story that you once covered answers I hope we get to you more about but in the meantime the book. He had a chance to read it he tells that history it also is a history book. -- is on -- Carr who note. Sarah -- does a lot of history boys and it illustrates beautifully this place that he is still magical. I just want to read one paragraph you fuel that before we hear from senator herself. Because she's not gonna read to you tonight and a -- that's a shame because you could hear you should here in addition to her exquisite reporting. Some of her now exquisite writing this is about when she's humanitarian worker living with a an Afghan family just like the man."

" And driving into Kandahar when de Kandahar which was the home of the Taliban and against Acadia and now it's become this chaotic sort of -- clear what it is. Inpatient white station wagons push past former Taliban pickup trucks to wheeled taxi wagons drawn by canceled what's to stop for passengers. Minivans with children clinging to the roof -- among the -- and bundles. Overloaded donkey barrows similar barrows -- symbol similar burdens he along by men instead of donkeys. -- food stands -- popcorn and I -- stands. Bicycles -- turned and elders all of these -- them in the lumpy roads. And like shiny dung beetles the brightly painted three -- on total over around under and through all the various obstacles. And there is something joyous about this -- and given Kandahar's small size something inevitably sociable. Lights -- to friends an oncoming cars hands are raised and cons of conversations pursued regardless of honking tiles on either side. And in my case frequent traffic jams are caused by friendly cops at intersections. Sloping over to shake my hand. I must be the first female they have they have ever seen behind a real. It's the writings charities in Kandahar is that we loved to see her come in. In her Afghan regalia and it was also really cool we. That she had gone to school shady hill with Sebastian younger. For some reason that also. Was something that appeal to us this is a little bit of shady -- reunion here tonight. Without further -- I'd like to present to somebody who has been brutally honest in -- reporting over the last few years and in this book synergies."

" So much rather and that it's got to be the most generous introduction I have ever receive."

" There -- humor in that book and it's not. Heartbreak the entire way. But this is September 11 and I thought I would address some of the slightly more sober issues that it is today. You votes. And so. I am as Robinson I was a journalist and I stayed behind and often that it's you know it's -- felon with Afghanistan. As some other people do it stayed behind. It that's true but that's not quite why stayed behind and it's not just that I wanted to shut up already and start doing something either although that was true. It's also a -- that was right after 9/11 and if so to me at that time that that was this century's. Sorry yeah this century's equivalent of the assassination of the --"

" You know I mean this which is what launch the first world war and in my -- the twenty century."

" This was a moment when the plate tectonic of history were obviously shifting and I believe that they still are."

" I believe that then implications."

" Of that shift has not yet become clear to us as quickly as they did in the beginning of the twentieth century. And it seem to me that there was a crossroads that was opening up before us as a nation and give -- our."

" Disproportionate influence in the world at the moment. Opening up before the rest of the world too and I guess that one of the possibilities. Could be summed up by the words that we all heard shortly after. 9/11 with us or against us."

" that's natural. That's a natural reaction for people to have when they're attacked our Brothers and sisters were killed in new York and their friends and their families our friends and our families were suffering. But I am I don't actually think that with us or against us it's a very sophisticated reaction. Upon being attacked nor is it actually very civilized one in my view and we work being taught to. In terms of civilization. We were told that this was a clash of civilizations that was opening up. And in fact I don't believe in the clash of civilizations. And I don't believe that we're in some ethnic fight to the death between. Islam and the west for so -- I don't actually believe that those two entities. Exist as a monolithic entities I think that both of those. Words are actually describing very complex. And rich civilizations. So I guess it was that I see."

" The fight. To use you know for lack of a better word the fight that."

" We're engaged in in this generation differently I think that it's something that it's a conflict between people on either side. Of that alleged divide between Islam and the west. The people on either side of that divide who believe in with us or against those are one team. And other team are the people who believe that you know we live in an interconnected world. That is made up of a lot of different civilizations that are rich and diverse and have a lot to teach each other and a lot to learn from each other. And I felt at that time and and in the wake of 9/11 and in the wake of the fall of the talent on that. That's a flight that weren't -- it's worth taking -- more. To come back -- us or against us thinking and that. In my view that use. The challenge. Facing us today it's sort of like identity of another metaphor it's like our moral equivalent of the of the Spanish civil war you know. End to immediate seemed very clear that Afghanistan and Honda are in particular. Was the front line in this battle. And this was the other ground zero this was the sort of and -- And that's why I stayed in Kandahar and so."

" The way that happened is the kind of wild story I was one of my. Sources. Background sources not so much on the secrets of what was happening during the -- album conflict but."

" But sources on Pashtun culture which could help me to explain to put in context. Some rather do bewildering events. Was uncle a President Karzai and Clancy's. And when I was leaving after my rotation was finished and I had done might pass off with my successor. In Kandahar my replacement I had dinner with I'm glad seats and we had a great time and we talked with a good deal of concern. About all of the obstacles that would be line -- for Afghanistan. And what. And in particular the kind of humanitarian free Furl he was a little bit worried about -- you've seen happen in the past."

" They're sharpening their teeth in sharpening their knives instead of all of the local as well as international nonprofit organizations that means we're going to be soaking up."

" A lot of the money that was going to Afghanistan and and this turns out to be a Karzai family."

" Trek -- now have come to learn that this is what they do you get -- ago. They very elegantly you know walked into the door."

" And as a stepping out the door they land the real question and he is was wouldn't you come back and help and I said yes I didn't even register the question. But I said yes. And what ended up happening was that IA he kind of passed me off to another one of his nephews Hume. Who is the older brother President Karzai and has actually lived in the United States for thirty years and and runs an excellent restaurants in in Baltimore Maryland. But it always stayed involved in in Afghan politics that. I'm and who had started a nonprofit organization that that existed on paper but not yet in fact and so. Based on a telephone call probably that had everything to do with how I set my name on the radio and not much else you know."

" I'm suddenly you know promoted to be head of this nonexistent."

" And zero and decide that I'm gonna set up its operations and persuaded him to do this -- an -- because it seemed to -- very important this was. As I said the other ground zero and it was. The most conservative part of Afghanistan but also the country's regional capital. And it was clear to me that if this exercise in nation building left conduct -- behind. It wasn't going very far and so I convinced him that that condom."

" But on the other thing that was interesting was that neither you nor myself nor my older sister -- lineman might roped into this venture."

" Also had any background in humanitarian. I would city in the humanitarian aid industry. Because that's what it's really become and it's dot com. All. The rigidities. That older. Well established industries have so there are things that you're not supposed to mix and match in. Humanitarian work for example you're not supposed to do. Stuff like rebuild things and then go and talk about it. You either do policy and then you're in a think tank or you do reconstruction and then you shut your mouth well. We didn't and we weren't aware of these rules and I have to say that I still think that."

" Our approach made a lot of sense because it turns out that. For example the first project that we did was to rebuild it village that it been destroyed in the American bombing. And this was a deliberately political. Thing to do because."

" We did didn't we heard along with all of you folks that this war was against the Taliban regime and not against the Afghan people and there was this village right next to the airport. Which have been destroyed in the bombing and I don't think it was wrongly destroyed the airport was weird al-Qaeda how to its last stand and I think al-Qaeda. Folks were probably holed up in that village but they were not the villagers. And the villagers had -- battle by that time because there was a lot of tons of ordinance coming down out of the stock at them and big these people were not al-Qaeda fighters. So when they came back from Pakistan and neighboring villages and things like that they come to. You know half -- their -- and it seemed to us very important. For what was to follow."

" That Americans be seen rebuilding what Americans had destroyed."

" And in the end we couldn't persuade the American government of that. Of the wisdom of this notion but we did persuade some of your neighbors in concert. Massachusetts -- cough up the money for this I gave a talk much like this one at the first pressures in Concord and -- and people."

" The people of Concord Massachusetts came up with the money to rebuild this -- so that was our -- project and we. Encountered various obstacles of various sorts in getting this done. But."

" Most significant obstacle came when our tractor you know. These are mud brick houses but we wanted to give them stone Foundation's. Which would make them. A little bit more lasting and things like that and so. We send our tractor to the quarry. Which is about halfway between conduct our city and the airport which is now being used as a military -- so it's about. Ten minutes outside of town. And one day. One of the governor's gunman holed up our tractor and says you can't have any of that stone because it belongs to the governor. Now unfortunately I don't have any. Visuals. Tonight but if you. See any pictures and you can on line of what kind of car looks like you'll see that one of the only things that there's an abundant supply out these rocks."

" But."

" And what I'm trying to say is that I could then go on to speak a whole lot more cogent -- About the problem of -- alerted him once it'd be -- might tractor that was held up at gunpoint. End. This is what we started to its its very quickly on a very personal. Level we where we started to experience the fact. That good governments. Was taking. A distinct sections place to the so called war on terror and there are a couple of reasons. That this was happening one. Has now been abundantly commented upon. Regarding Iraq and given the fact that it was also the case in Afghanistan. It it makes it even more of a tragedy that it was a case in Iraq and it's called not having a plan. There was no plan for what was gonna happen in Afghanistan after the fall of the Talabani and there was no. Certainly no plan for what was gonna happen in -- civilian. Fashion and so what that meant was that kind of -- listeners that the military. Recruited to be proxies are you know grounds so called Gramm campaign against the Talabani ended up by default in positions of political power. And IE you know can understand why. Military planners may -- sign these guys not because they could round up. You know people who knew how to fire gone pretty quickly and we were hurried and stuff like that. Those people were definitely not qualified to take over the position you know take over the governing of their countryman. After the war and in fact. When I was reporting what I was hearing from Afghan refugees in Pakistan and -- in con artists and it's the Taliban felt was. Yeah we're really glad to see the back of the column on but the one thing we're afraid obvious that the warlords and come back because. That was the one thing that the talent on -- remembered for with it a degree of affection was that they -- Extricated these guys from the body politics. And so what we started to see is that. You know in this case the governor decides to award himself a monopoly in private monopoly on. A public resource because the mountains. Around conduct our belong to. The people they don't belong they are not the personal property of the governor and what we found is that. A lot of the people that we had ushered into positions of power where basically preying upon their countryman. And one day I gathered a group of young people together because we wouldn't want to radio station. And I wanted to do some kind of market survey like what are you what you like what kind of music you like to listen to and what sorts of programs you want. And it turns out that within ten minutes we were talking about security. But when these kids were talking about security they aren't talking about top. They would talk about their own government. They they were suffering insecurity at the hands of their own government one of the kids who was there speaking with me his brother had been shot in the leg because one of these gunmen wanted his bicycle. And another kid. Had witnessed it didn't happen to him but there was a wedding procession."

" That went to a checkpoint right here our office actually. And."

" And he watched the soldiers pulled up the wedding procession and asked what she -- me which means sweeps but you can imagine what that means. It means money and the driver didn't come up with any money and he got shot he didn't get killed but I'm. This was what people we're experiencing was was an insecurity. Visited upon them by their own. Government so when I started to asks am. Robinson head shape people's locales in the figuratively in the American government what I kept hearing back was well. But we need these people to establish security. You know because they've got armed forces and they can help us in this war on terror and keep the lid on the terror. And we'll worry about governance later and my argument was that -- the caught -- in security. It's not the kind of insecurity year. Talking about but there -- the cause of insecurity and -- we are now five years later and that's later in my book. And here's what we have. We've got I think you've been hearing about the Afghan National Army and in fact I heard General Jones who's the head of NATO. I was on top of the nation today with him and he was I I wasn't able to. Answer this comment that he made but he was very proud of the Afghan National Army and how. You know -- the United States has been training this Afghan National Army you know Afghans are good at fighting but -- they. Good discipline soldiers well IC Afghan National Army soldiers every single day an -- and shaking down. Regular people in Afghanistan I see that when they are deployed in an area where -- been fighting with the Talabani and expose to check people coming -- they relieve people of their money. Of their telephone you know portable telephones there's no landline system to this day and on -- that the only way to. Communicate by telephone cellphones. They take peoples' opium now that's a nice thing because world against opium but they don't take it to burn it they take -- of their gonna go -- And that is people's experience of the national Afghan National Army not to mention the fact that many of them don't speak the language of southern Afghanistan and so. They are treating. And the locals in southern Afghanistan like. Subjects. Really."

" I run a cooperative now -- to be registered as a cooperative you have to -- Put some money in the national bank that's supposed to be your money that you can that your cooperative can draw upon. There's ways. So you have to Latin. You know to deposit this money in the bank there various little receipts that they have to write out for you."

" My treasure went to make this deposit -- comes back and -- there I didn't deposit the money because they want 500 afghanis that's that ten dollars in. And why they say they won't give us the receipt for us. I'll take care act you know that we go marching back into the bank the next day and the guy wants is 500 afghanis I say I'm so I'm responsible -- that a board of directors -- if you money."

" Without something that explains what it was used for so. We go to the yen. His superior and I explain this out and mysterious as you know what she's right if you can't have her receipt you know meaning he can't have -- right."

" So he writes out the five other receipts for the various. Actions that this deposit entails and then he says well I need twenty afghanis the receipt."

" So -- pull out."

" Here's your money but could you please give your receipts -- if we're back where we started from."

" And he says no he can't give me -- I put the money back in my pocket and I say -- you can have your money."

" And he says -- you can't have your you know little cash book until tomorrow. And I don't know how it happened but the next thing was that I'm sitting on his desk. Cross legged amidst his papers and I crossed my arms and I say well then I'm not leaving until tomorrow. And the result is that we get. Our work finished in about five minutes but I can do that believe it or not has an American I'm actually safer. In Afghanistan than a lot of Afghans are and there is no way that a regular Afghan would -- Take somebody on like that because they would be afraid that they would get beaten or they would get hauled off to jail or something like that and that -- people's experience. With this government that we brought to power and on the last example but I'll give you is the am. The recent relatively recent parliamentary elections I guess it's almost a year ago now. And here again it's an example of how interesting it is to be on the other side of the right microphone as it -- and be observed in my former colleagues and how they work. So there's this. Parliamentary election and suddenly you have the descent of the journalists we haven't seen any income are for two years and suddenly there's this kind of cloud of locusts you know that descends on town. And they show up about two days before the election they do their setup pieces they cover the day of the election and and they meet. Now okay I can forgive the Europeans but surely the American journalists. Remember that the important day of an election is not the day when people cast their ballots it's the day when the vote is counted right. How did we forget this so. There were ten days of free for all that went utterly uncovered I mean it was I'm a campaign worker. How much does it cost to get in a zero added to my candidates -- We had ballot -- showing up with all the ballots written in the same color ink and having the same name on them of course we had ballot boxes that went home to people's houses because they're women of course couldn't be asked to go outside to vote so you know they had devoted home and meanwhile all sorts of other votes get -- in -- in -- I mean it was. Insane. And so. You know I'm often asked this question are we you -- is it fair do we have the right to impose. Democracy on people that just might not be ready for it or might not wish. To have democracy and I guess that my answer to that in mind more cynical moods is that. Yeah were imposing American democracy as we are currently experiencing it. And I don't believe that that is the best that America has to offer the world and what I've found. In Afghanistan and use that. Setting certain major issues aside like the role of women. Give me and grace on the role of women but that aside."

" Afghans want from their government pretty much what we want from arts which is to say infrastructure that functions. Schools where they can send their kids. You know doctors who have learned some medicine so that when they. Make prescriptions you know give out prescriptions your kids can get poisoned by taking that the pills that they write down. And this is not. What they're. Getting they also want real participation real participation in their collective destiny in one form or another and this unfortunately is not what they've been getting over the last five years and it takes us back to the issue governments. You know we decide okay will will think about governance later. And but and and so what I wanna say is that this is the context in which you all I'm. Can begin to understand I think the current. Taliban resurgence or lack of better words I'm eating is not an indigenous uprising that's coming from the grass -- inside Afghanistan. It is not that and there are various ways that you can tell that apart from you know some evidence about how. Involve Pakistan which can provide you with later but there's some really. You know. I was driving to cobble. Recently and picked up. I think he was probably twelve or thirteen years old boy. Who went to school this was in the province immediately to the north of Kandahar and he went to school in the provincial capital and you -- in the village that use you know. Totally. -- on hate and so anywhere just having with -- in the current you know well what's it like how we know what's the deal with the -- in your village. And he said man you know it's full of them and there are in the hills above our village and then they come down every night it's fifteen motorcycles. And they come down to get the food. And so that to me implies that there's probably ten people are being fed by each motorcycle and so then we ask them aren't -- I think people from from around your votes it needs to know -- I can tell from the way they talk there either from. -- our province of Helmand Province -- you know during the anti Soviet. Resistance in the 1980s. Resistance fighters fought out of their own villages that's how are under -- real grassroots insurgency works its people fight from the places that they are very familiar with and -- They can they really have a lot of local support. But it's not a local insurgency when -- you know playing a shell game with here with your fighters. I am however. And and so what I'd like to say is that okay sorry however. Old -- this isn't. You know springing up from the grassroots. There using certain amount of space. Being made. For the top in other words I believe that it's basically an invasion. Systematically described it's an invasion from Pakistan but. Local. Villagers are making some -- like that -- family is providing food for the people but the reason this is happening is not. Ideological. This is really counter intuitive but it's one of the first things that I came to understand how hard is that Afghans are just about the least an ideological people I've ever met. And that you don't victim through three revolutions. In the last. Less than thirty years and they've had it with ideology they're vaccinated at this point. Heights they are experiencing their own government has. And a predator as a justice and I mean. In this. Cooperative mine. This one of the women who works with us is extremely. Moving in the way that she describes how she's feeling that things and she came and went in -- What to do anymore because we've got one foot on -- one watermelon. This is a local expression and another foot on another watermelon. And she said you know the towel on our preying on us at night like they're preying on that little voice village. In the government is preying on mass in the daytime. And the fact is that in this context. You know people are remembering yes the Talabani had a polling strictures in terms of personal freedoms and believe me these strictures."

" He had impact on men as well as women."

" For example when I just drove up to. Koppel. Two guys from my cooperative who -- with me. Who normally weird sort of starkly caps which of the local fashion and Honda are they tied on whopping. Black -- to make that drive."

" And that's when the Taliban aren't running the government but."

" I'm people also remember that they couldn't drive to -- without danger under the -- machine and they remember that there was no corruption. At least not on the level that I'm talking about there might have been corruption and I've asked people repeatedly. And when I push them they say well you know the."

" The asked Chief Justice of the Supreme Court at that level you you know if someone was gonna be executed. You might be able to buy him off."

" It's not like today where public office is for sale openly for sailing Afghanistan and they remembered that. That's actually sort of knew how to run a railroad like you know if he needed to get your car licensed it would happen in a couple of days. This story I told you about the bank when we were depositing money this was after we had had to harass the Department of Agriculture for seven solid months. To get. Registered. You know you would have those kinds of administrative things they would get done in a timely fashion into the -- on and so."

" And this is why people are beginning to some degree to make some room."

" Because the government seems at least that's hostile to their interest as the top on -- and because. The talent on. Are now being ranked when I asked people to rank the government's. We get the Communists are the best not under the Soviets but after the Soviets withdrew they were another couple of years when the Communists were still -- that was the best. Next is the telethon. Next to us and last is that totally violent and chaotic civil war. So I -- that had refocused on governance. On. How do we focused on governance in the beginning. Things wouldn't look the way they look today had we focused on what I believed to be American values like common decency. Like respect for and attentiveness to the government. Like accountability. Like genuine participation. In the process by the people and for the people. Then. You know what the Afghan people would not tolerate."

" The presence of Talabani in their midst so. I guess the moral. Or another moral evil that has to do with getting to know people."

" We're back to us versus them I mean this book is partly the story of how. You know you get close enough to people who seemed to be different from us however you might define us."

" You know and get close enough."

" To them to be able to understand their perspective and I think that's something we all really need to make an effort to do every single day be that -- and Boston Massachusetts where I understand that. The rates of violent death among young people is just about the same as the rate of violent death among Canadians soldiers in Kandahar. Or in Iran for example or in Afghanistan. Thank you very much all of you for coming out and we're going to turn this into any dialogue very quickly yes --"

" The card you left for the part you standing outside the governor be murders world lord's house. And he drove by you for like the seventeen -- you still if it is -- your finger up in Houston stopped. And stuff. And got out. We are gonna turn this into a dialogue and if you have a question for -- I think there's more than one and when there's only one and then come on tonight and I'll start it will only get yourself out there and please just formed a line. It -- many questions as we can. I -- David wrote today from New York Times he just go to terrific piece about Afghanistan just returned a little while ago. He says that what's happening there now as a proxy war between India and Pakistan that Pakistan is backing the Taliban. Because the Taliban offsets Indian influence. In Afghanistan and your thoughts."

" I don't think India is anything like as active in Afghanistan as as Pakistan has and I don't think it's really fair to say it's a proxy war. What I think is happening is that Pakistan has a paranoia. About India and that's why it's so interested in controlling Afghanistan which it has been interested in its consistently the last thirty years. So I think there's some truth to that but I don't see. I don't see Indians you know arming people to fight against -- you know against -- on or against any. Proxy of Pakistan's in Afghanistan. Say."

" Yet the team actually the most surprising thing that I heard you say and it's -- really. It's very striking to me was that the most popular government. -- the post Soviet Communist government. Why the west that and why did in that and -- was that because of internal and external forces."

" I think -- in particularly in Kandahar the post Soviet Communist -- government was popular because. The governor. And was a very you know was really acting we'd -- in local. Traditions. Of conciliation. And I dispute resolution. And what he did was ask. The insurgents. Mujahedeen they were called at the time please don't. And don't commit solicit you don't they never were committing suicide attacks but don't commit attacks that are gonna kill. Civilians why are we fighting among Afghans now you know this doesn't need to continue. And any of you who need to come into condoms are for whatever reason you can come in and we will not -- you have an amnesty. And he lived by that and people will never forget that that he put a lid on. This post Soviet. Bloodshed that was happening elsewhere so where Kabul. Was basically I mean Koppel looked like crossing me after you know during this post Soviet factional fighting it parts of it would totally leveled. That did not happen in -- all the damage to buildings and conduct took place. What we're Soviets cause damage that was one and the reason that this. Didn't survive. Is and because of Pakistan again I hate to say it but. Pakistan. The Pakistani government at that time also was really interested in. Controlling. Afghanistan they call the issue was called strategic depth. Which are not quite sure what that actually means but if you look at a country that's thinking a lot about India. They wanna have kind of a vacant lot at their backyard at their back or a friendly. Government at their back or one that they can control and so they had been handing over a lot of American money. We we gave Pakistan a lot of money to support the anti Soviet resistance and what Pakistan and it was -- most of that money. To the guide that they wanted to take over Afghanistan after the Soviets withdrew. And his name was good that he Hekmatyar and a lot of ways he was a precursor to the top and so they didn't want a seat that. You know local Communist government stay alive they wanted to see this extremists. They weren't at that time consciously manipulating. Religious extremism has kind of tool in am. In regional strategy. So that's why that didn't happen there was they continued to. Pour money into their favorite resistance factions in order to bring down that that Communist governments -- you didn't and and you write this as well that. Is that why. You also right that the infighting among the warlords. Was what. Created the need for the Taliban last -- aggressive yeah what happened was stacked I was never able to really conquer the country they didn't -- Afghanistan I told you it's not an ideological country and they didn't want this brand. A radical Islam that's not to say that it's not a conservative country of course it is but there's a difference there's a very subtle difference and he was pretty roundly booted out of Kandahar right after the Soviets were booted out. So what you got instead of this -- taking over the government was total chaos. So then what the Pakistani government did was say what's. This horse isn't gonna win the race let's come up with another horse and they basically ginned up the column on movement and and by that time. Afghanistan was so. Exhausted. From. What was it about. -- almost five years of really violent chaos that they were willing to accept what. You know once radical radical Islamic. Movement."

" Our son Melissa is in the army and he was in Afghanistan during the election and he was very. He had also been in Iraq during that election and he was extremely impressed. The afghanis you know he just says there's no different there's such a difference between the two. Given any may have to go -- here again. Do you have some. Advice on how Americans and particularly American soldiers. Can't move sort of -- in that respect and be part of the people there instead of being seen as part of an."

" Pine forests it's that's the real tragedy of the Afghan story using it is not Iraq and I was in kinda hard when -- fell and okay people weren't jumping up and down and standing online to shave off their -- it's a sober place I mean it's a place where. That's very who wear the manners are quite formal it's it's. It's wild because. It's both un relief and formal it's quite self contradictory in people's manners but. People were not. You know standing on line at barber shops but everybody that I talked to was really interested in. This. Post -- on. Experiment I guess I can call it in nation building and and saw it as you know the chance that might. Done we teach them how of their thirty year nightmare and so the fact that five years later they finally become terribly disillusioned is real tragedy and so I have a hard time at this stage. Telling you how an American men. Ought to behave because people are pretty dissolution and the problem is that you know this is going to be another shocker. Everybody in kinda hard but everybody is convinced that we are actually allied to the top line. And the reason they think that is I just explained how the anti Soviet resistance worked that we funneled you know something like a quarter average -- a quarter of a billion dollars a year into the anti Soviet resistance for a decade. And we did that via Pakistan because that was the Cold War and we couldn't be directly funding a fighting force that was you know fighting against the Soviet Union we have nuclear war on our hands or we might. So the way we did it it was this kind of fiction that everybody. You know kind of -- that we gave them money to Pakistan Pakistan gave the money to. The use factions well guess what in 2003. We've provided the Pakistani government with. Sorry yes with five not three billion dollars. Over a five year period and the Pakistani government is G inning op the current. Column on resurgence so you're. Kinda hardy and -- will this looks just like what was happening in the 1980s this. America must be doing this on purpose because believe me the logic of it has got me even -- confused. So I can really understand that it's got and Afghans confused so for an American soldier. The problem is that. Depending on what his job is the restrictions on getting off the base are often very high. I would urge him to learn. The language as much as he can't even if it's a couple of expressions people really. Our move -- when you make the effort to learn even just how to say hello an improper way in their language here."

" In Santa Monica means that way to say hello but and because it's not the land has -- woody at this and I'm Connie eight. I'm saying that your my sister and your my co worker you know. What would musical work -- talent that's announcing."

" It is any Ronnie in laying it -- Leo running in language group but he is not the same as RC which is also corporation which is also called Dari. Which is spoken in Iran and Afghanistan and Tajikistan so it's you know that whole. Region it's related but I don't speak Persian I don't so. When I go to -- for example I have to apologize to shopkeepers and stand terribly sorry do you -- Pashtun and they burst out laughing because here's this foreigner. Who not only speaks -- but has this very strong southern accent. You know which took them sounds like a talent you know its growth. That's one thing the other thing is to be alert to on somebody's tribal affiliations again depending on where. The soldier or officer is stationed in in kind of -- what happened and that story is told in this book. Is that. The US army got very tied up with one particular. Tried the tried that belong to this war lord governor. So from the perspective of the rest of it was like the Americans where the private army. That belong to one tried and there were five major thrives. And they didn't understand they said but I thought you guys were coming to serve the hole to help the whole country move forward in here you are. Basically being monopolized by one tried and that was the way and they were not aware of these tribal distinctions and then what happened was these rotations. Happen every six to nine months or a year and so what ever one rotation learned. The next rotation didn't know. And even worse often no matter what one rotation learn the next rotation would deliberately do the opposite. Because there's this kind of unit rivalry thing going on and so this again I experienced because. If I would develop a relationship with the base commander for example the next base commander of the -- wouldn't speak to me. And this happens you know basically four times and --"

" This is up fascinating and clarifying dimension this may be just a larger different version of the question was just ask but. You mentioned what we should have done prior to going in in the way of planning and looking ahead for what would happen after the invasion. So. Rather than looking back what do we do now -- what would you recommend that we."

" Do okay. That is an excellent question and a very difficult one that was the question I didn't wanna get asked because."

" You know what I'm doing. And you know talk to my mom sometime who happens to be in the room you know what I'm doing is totally irrational."

" Because. I don't see any you know looking at this."

" With my insolent. I don't see a lot of hope. I don't see any evidence that this thing is gonna turn around so what am I doing going back to kind of -- in two months and you know. Ramping up my -- business that is gonna involve having people plant Rosas who's flowers were not going to be able harvest for a year or two you know. We're talking -- long term in a place that's that's a battlefield. -- What. So part of me says I think it may be too late they're -- tipping points that I've seen. One is that villages where I have worked in the past are now politely asking you not to come and visit. Not to buy their pomegranate I mean the whole point of this is I wanna expand the market for illicit local agriculture and that means I wanna buy peoples contracts. And their villages that actually asks me. Please get involved in fruit because this is our mainstay. And when I talked to one of these villages elder. Last fall actually tested you know okay now I'm ready need to pomegranate and he said look -- I'd really rather you -- them on the wholesale market in on our proper don't come to our village because. We're gonna get retaliated against. So when you have people who are now afraid to recede. The aid and development assistance that was supposed to turn the country around. You're at a place where it's going to be hard to make a positive difference the second tipping point -- Qualified people in government which again was my hobby horse for the first. Four years that I was there I was extremely distressed when in my usual style I barge. Into the office of the very talented man who runs -- UN agency and said US to run for mayor of this town because you are the guy who's going to be able to. To do something with it and we discussed this and we discussed some of the issues that he was concerned about I mean he took it on board. But he had a couple of very serious reservations and then I found out that later the governor actually offered him the job and he turned it down. When you've gotten to the point that people number one are too afraid or number two don't wish to be associated with this government. Then again it's very hard to think about how to turn -- around that set. What I wish the American. Officials and other international officials in Afghanistan would do is start holding these people. A principal I mean the fact is we brought them to power they wouldn't be in power if it -- honest we are funding them so we actually have a right. To ask them for a certain degree of respect toward their fellow citizens and that doesn't mean we should run the country for them. But this is what Africans were begging me from the beginning to do because these you know. These local warlords. You know. Afghanistan does have democratic structures it has a tribal system which is actually against -- the issue of women side. And that's a big thing to set -- it is a democratic. Institution and it's a place it's a consensus building institution it's not. One person one vote in a private you know ballot kind of situation but it's a place where. If somebody wants to do something they've got to achieve a consensus of the leading members of their community be it. A village Dora district or province and the problem was that during the anti Soviet. Resistance as I said. A lot of money and weapons were being pumped into the hands of some of these tribal elders all of a sudden they are. Out of control. Of their fellow citizens their fellow citizens no longer have the leverage. To -- these guys in and they -- really aware of that so people were saying to meet. You guys have to ride herd on these warlords because we can't do it and the sentiment we can't do it from the bottom up. And the central government is apparently not doing it from the top down so you guys have to do it and again at the risk of making the people were standing on line make -- making their feet hurt. I'd like to tell just another story which. Again I I really don't wanna make it sound like I'm putting my own horn but this is the kind of thing that I would like to see American officials doing. I'm a member of the manufacturers unions since we manufacture so and I started going to their you know I decided well heck I'll go to their. Meetings and these are wonderful people who are concerned with really practical issues like. The electricity supply there are two kinds of electricity and condom. That is inhabited by the former governors cronies. And the battle actress in -- everybody else and if you're trying to run heavy machinery. And you've got electricity that is literally. You know on a minute by minute basis. Obsolete in between about a 180 volts and about 230 volts it's if you're gonna burn out your machines and it also cuts off very frequently. And so the factory owners were saying you know all we want is eight hours of reliable electricity and the other thing they needed was titled. To the land that had been improved with USA ID that's our overseas development agency USA ID funds. As an industrial zone but. Provincial officials would basically. Hanky tanking around with them because they wanted you know they want the people to build factories so the value of the land would go up and then it was supposed to pay for their land. And the guys are saying we can't we can't work under these conditions so. They've been trying to get. In to the governor to deal with these issues and he was just not interested. And because of this the other wild thing about my Ngo was the one used to work for act that was run by president Karzai's. Older brother is they gave me this preposterous degree of access to you know the movers and shakers that was way out of proportion this is something that Robin raised earlier. -- out way out of proportion to who I was personally or certainly to the impact or size of our -- So I'm in a position where I can actually talked to the governor whenever I want. And there was a meeting and you know he actually pulled me into his office in the middle of the meeting. And I said look you've got to solve this electricity problem and he said look I don't wanna talk about electricity I think you have to talk about electricity. This is your job and he said call me tomorrow. And I said. -- that that's not good enough -- account here's your calendar. And we opened up this calendar and it turns out that he had no meetings scheduled between 10 AM and 5 PM and I said right I sin for 11 o'clock. And and I do this in a kind of joking way which is how I get away with this you know I don't think I could probably Boston. Austin but. He. To give him credit he called in the head of the electricity apartment and and from the municipality. And it took a couple of meetings over about two weeks but. The problems got solved and what I'm saying is this is what US officials ought to be doing. And the reason I think that I became a planet potentially ambassador from nobody is because. I felt it US officials worked doing what we had told the Afghans we were gonna do and what the Afghans were really asking justices."

" Doing wonderfully. Just umpiring online applicable -- mine 00 awaiting this press thank for here now right others. These right you're all doing great I should know better yet."

" Thank you for doing this my question is considering. The reported. -- oppressive the chronicle attitude towards women in the country. And you being a reader from outside the country. Always their attitude towards you and women in general."

" Okay that's two very different questions. Because. What turns out to the would be the case for foreign women working in Muslim countries is that there -- a third sex. And it turns out to be the best thing that you wanna be is a foreign female because it means that you can hang out with the women. But you can. Boss the men around and if you are so inclined. And I'm there's actually in one of the passages that I do sometimes read when I read. From this book. The previous governor of -- the one that I was really tangling with got really upset with me at some point and actually complained about -- to President Karzai and he called me a -- site. Which is an extremely. Rude term for a man ish woman shall we say. And he said get that -- out of my province or I'm gonna quit. And it it's a very interesting question in terms of my own. Gender identity. Because I also have men working for me and they are. Out of their masculinity so it becomes an issue they are now known around town as you know working for Sarah and their various things that. Some of these traffic cops who now know why. Truck and stuff like that will save them like you know you're Sarah's. God I hate war sometimes you're Sarah's bully. And that has a very specific implication in southern Afghanistan where. Mature male on immature male homosexuality. Is very common so what that means is that. That guy is the subordinates. Partner in a homosexual. Of -- basically. Abusive homosexual relationship. So we get that and sometimes we play on that ourselves because when I do. Dressed in my rig when we're driving around you know driving out of -- are in one case at a checkpoint I was not driving that car at that time. And at that particular stage and the soldier asks. My colleague who was driving whether I was his -- And we both. I'm assured him that I was because that was the best when it's thirty you know and so they're these -- winks that get passed around -- stuff like that but. The other point has to do with the and as a woman I don't approve of this but the implications of the word man. Afghans in this is again quite counter intuitive they --"

" Very frightened people. They get a lot of credit for being you know fearsome and bloodthirsty and stuff like that they've also been through. Thirty years of civil war and that means that as a society they're basically suffering collective post traumatic stress disorder. And that means that they cannot psychologically. Live up to their own. Ideals of courage and I appear to I mean I jump up on the on the desk and and and say I'm not paying a pride. And so I'm often described. Ones though older brother of one of my cooperative members was with us and you know there was the joke goes around this era man or woman and he says Sarah -- man."

" And that was a really moving thing for him to say but. That said I also have a relationship with the men and my cooperative that is quite unique because. Because it is such. A conservative society men often can't talk about intimate things with anybody. They can't talk about intimate things with their own male friends because it simply off limits and can't. Talk about your relationship with your wife or the fact that you want some birth control or you know. So I become the person -- years about the miscarriage. Who -- you know who's asked to bring some birth control who gets to see the bite marks on people's arms and stuff like that it's a really unbelievable. Kind of roll that I've come to play. That is has nothing to do with. The life that Afghan women -- and that remains very unchanged and injustice it briefly it's very unchanged since the time of the Pol Pot. It's no longer imposed by law. But nobody goes the street without -- prepared in -- are they doing Koppel cobble things are beginning to change in the north things are beginning to change and you get this sort of Sharia fashion. That you start to see in other parts of Middle East where people. Remain covered in the appropriate -- away but they start to take some liberties with style and things like that but. Certainly the Brcko also everyone understands that the burka is not Sharia that there is nothing in Islam -- says your face has to be covered and pretty much everyone men as well as women are not that happy about that. And yet this social construct uses still such that people don't feel comfortable. I'm going on with their faces on covered on the other hand we did our cooperative and this was also very important to me that men and women. I didn't -- just to a women's program. I thought it would be even more revolutionary to have men and women working together in the same space. And there is some privacy for women so that you know I mean gifts most of their spaces. Kind of shielded by a rush Matt. I'm so that they can roll up their sleeves which again is not appropriate in Shia area and if you are shocking pomegranate you wanna roll up your sleeves. But they interact with the -- beautifully they don't cover their faces inside the compound it's a very respectful mutual relationship between them almost. Maternal and -- because the women. On you know our. Just about a generational older than most of the men working with me. And mustang OK then. I mean on my. Right after."

" What do to let the audience know about a wonderful -- films that I'm featured cute that I saw at the human rights. Film festival international film -- I don't know the name of -- I'm wondering."

" If you -- to versions of it one that is longer was originally aired on the Sundance Channel and it's called. Life after war. And the other was aired on Frontline a couple of times actually under the title my house for -- keep up which is a great title and it's basically the story of the showdown with the governor over the stone what was incredible. Was that this documentary team. Hat you know they wanted to do a kind of straight story about you know girl reporter turns girl do gooder and you know. We rebuild their village in in in Afghanistan and what they got was this showdown. With the governor over. Public resources and it's all on camera it's really amazing thank you for bringing that."

" It truly is an. While you're a great storyteller I learn so much from watching that I do want to encourage everybody to see it. My question for you is what is your view now of Hamid Karzai -- And you know he is. Got these connections to the Boston area. One of his relatives runs a restaurant here as well Helmand. And he's western educated and he certainly always seems to mean very well when I see him. On tape. But. Certainly the country's going to hell in a hand basket as you're describing under his watch. So. Does that make him. The well meaning person who we never the US never gave enough resources to where does that make him the person who's. Going along get along to save his own neck so he doesn't get killed."

" That's a very difficult question for me to answer particularly in a public venue because. I got adopted it. By the Karzai family and I got adopted by that and the almost. I mean I have to. Wonder about their judgment frankly because it wasn't like they did a background check on me or anything and suddenly I'm a member of the family and Robin was talking about these letters that I would fire off to President Karzai he was the brother who asked me to do that. We would get into these discussions in the house and you know -- be another one of the Brothers let's -- man I was just arguing with him on the phone about that yesterday and he won't listen to me maybe he'll listen to you. Would you write him a letter and so they started this kind of as a pistol Larry relationship with President Karzai. The Burton Brothers would hand deliver you know these -- of mine. And I have never experienced at bare hands anything but. Real. Kindness and generosity and on you know and be there particularly on the -- the younger brother who is has kite is kind of the de facto tribal -- in Kandahar. You know I could status house whenever I needed to and if I needed guards he was willing I never did but he often said to me you know if you need some guys with guns and god and he just asked me. And I do have a -- of his actually. But I have to say that I am very disappointed in President Karzai now the level of my disappointment is of course. You know -- equivalent probably to the level my expectations which were absurdly high but. I submit. About President Karzai and about the United States and how it's seen in the world when you set yourself up as a paragon of virtue. People tend to get very upset win you fall significantly short of that mark and so. You know well American. Or Karzai's activities may not be much worse than those of our equivalents or its equivalents. Among peers they do fall very far short of how we're describing our -- and how he describes himself. I think the President Karzai was doomed I mean that was part of why actually I stopped reporting and decided to help him is because this guy here is our decade's answer to. Nelson Mandela and Hamas and he was the equivalent because you only get one or two of -- a century. But I'm saying you know this was our decades inspirational leader. And the forces he was up against we're just ridiculous so what do you have to do but help them you know you've got to get in there. With him but what I found is that you know on the one hand forces were terrible and it is true it's not only that he didn't get enough resources I think. That had the resources that he got the more effectively distributed to any you know would have made. For a very different picture than what we're seeing today. But he did get you know this thing about the war lords and there wasn't time which is described in this book that he finally decided I wanna get rid of half a dozen of them. And again I mean he didn't do this very well. And there were ways that he needed you know he needed to take on board that the United States was about to invade Iraq. And had its attention diverted and if he was gonna sell this thing. He had to really -- he had to figure out how do Americans think and how can -- package this thing in such a way that it's not gonna give them great you know white hair. And he didn't bother with that and so the result was the Americans got white hair and they said not now please you know now. That wasn't fair I mean we basically were telling him anything you want mr. Karzai and then when he told us what we what we wanted we said no. And and so he didn't get the kind of support we didn't come through for him nor our government didn't come through in the way that it said it would. However. He does president of the country and he did have a lot of occasions on which to. Make some -- and he didn't do it and had I been in his position and I get the entire American government telling you know. You know you can't fire these guys I would have said look I'm really sorry but I and the president of a sovereign nation and if you don't want you to do this and I'm gonna resign. And once you don't resign. Then you take responsibility. For what follows and I actually saw him on my way out. Because we do have this. Relationship and even though I'm saying things that I think probably hurt his feelings. First of all I few that I have the responsibility to -- on what I'm about to say before I say you know so he does have a copy of this book and he doesn't know what's and it. And you know he asked me why. I seem not to live in going out and around much in our recently announced that honesty Mr. President. I can't walk out my door without an example of the kinds of things I was just describing cute guys in terms of how. Members of his government treats his people and -- I just can't bear to watch it every day. And he was pretty taken back every single day use something like. And I said you know this is this security problem the security problem is governments and you have got to clean up. This predatory behavior and his corruption you know that is being perpetrated by your people and he tells me. Have some patience this is what he always tells -- Because I've just pointed this dynamite nude she Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and used in the start cleaning misting up and it's not gonna happen right away but it's gonna start to trickle down in a couple of months and I say great I'm really glad that you've done. And then discover afterwards that he in fact did not appoint this guy he appointed the old car dropped. Reaction. I mean absolutely. Reactionary. Sure real law. Proponent. As Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and it was the parliament. That said we are not having him back and rammed down president Karzai's wrote this other. So I have to say that he may feel betrayed by me. By certain things that I say in this book but I think we all. And I'm speaking. I shouldn't care you know have the presumption to do that but Afghans feel betrayed by him and so why. There."

" I want to know how it is that the US government ran the army and our allies forgot how to do this because after. By 1950. Germany and Japan were stable. They were on their work well on their way to solve government. There were no guerrilla wars going on in these places and they are basically well on the way to becoming autonomous. The states again. Com source is like the US used to know what to do with the country. After of depositary victory and somehow that knowledge to knock it past to not get passed on over the generations what happens."

" Well you'd have to. Asked the government that I mean it would be a really interesting thing to ask whether anybody in the current government has studied the Marshall plan we old yet. This expression Marshall plan bandied about all the time but. What was interesting to me it was I was supposed to give a top which I didn't end up giving act in Pakistan. At the fiftieth anniversary of when you know agreement was signed that you know. Basically parceled out -- or Europe and stuff like that so I go into the Harvard coop. To a bone up on the thing because I needed to learn if I was gonna try to make a comparison I needed to learn how did it actually worked in post war. Europe and what I found was there were no books on the shelves that dealt with post -- Europe you had a lot of books in the coop about. World -- II. And then you had a lot of books about individual countries. After World War II but I was stunned. Vicky in this kind of university community. With this man he under employed historians. Including ones that are. In school that nobody had thought about writing at this day and -- have thought about writing a book. About how this post war Europe I mean I'm sure there is one someplace but there's not -- a recent enough one for it to be on the shelves. And the second point is that. Society and right in Europe right. But I think it has to do with means. Read. You know everyone has the reed fiasco you have to read my book first. But then you can read fiasco and you give us the how. There was a consistent effort to do this on the cheap and there has been -- I think it's a Brookings study. That looked at. Post war experiences since the Marshall plan and there is a direct correlation between how much time and how many people and how much money is spent and how well it works and if we think that we can do Afghanistan. In a year. And then to Iraq and do them both well we're out of our minds."

" in the Stanley Cup and 30%. Congress as imagines the last lasting lucky questionnaires and it every resident chances in years at the last instance here I'm and I just like to add a coda to the use of -- previous one day. A lot of people also ask me about. You know did you feel a devastating difference when the Iraq War started. And what you'll also find -- fiasco which is what we experienced and it was totally inexplicable to us is there was never any flood of aid into Afghanistan and flood of focus on Afghanistan that was abruptly ended. In -- in you know the spring of 2003. Because those resource has started getting pulled off of Afghanistan in 2002. So that's how this didn't work."

" And wanted to ask what to Robin alluded to at the beginning. You were told by your editors and NPR that they didn't really. One anti report on which referred to as it's the warlords stupid I mean among reporters I'm I'm a journalist myself. And there's the story because or any -- good story well. Pitch it to us and get uncle out and report it and apparently this was not the case and -- could you talk a little bit about them."

" This is a really. I mean -- You rarely talk about your employer has your family. But I was an NPR addict long before I ever dreamt that I would be reporting for NPR. I used to work at the wind she is cast in summer Somerville. And I had control over the radio. And so I inflicted NPR on all of my customers and so this was a place that IA. Love to viscerally. The way one loves one's family so it came. As a pretty devastating. And I had never I only experienced what you describe which was like it's a story and it pretty much lets you know if you can. Come up with the stuff for it you know go ahead I almost never had a story turned down and if it was it was you know for. Not I'm substantive. Reasons. So. Here I am about to set sail for you know arguably at that time the most dangerous place for an American to one -- which was at that point quite that Pakistan with the promise of kind of car when the Taliban fell and saw a little I have some trepidation I had worked in cost I'll places before but I had a degree of trepidation about how it was gonna work out for an American to be wandering around the streets with a microphone. What didn't dawn on me that what was that what was gonna be difficult about this assignment was the reaction I was gonna be getting from back home. And I have to say that 9/11 really kind of blew out. The critical thinking apparatus of a lot of us including unfortunately the people that American citizens -- to have. Which is the editors at places like PR and so. What happened was I started getting you know stories we're actually not being accepted or word. Were receiving. Very very caustic comments from my colleagues I mean it's one thing when you have listeners who heap abuse on you for. Doing a civilian casualties story which you know I can handle that. Because. -- I had an answer to that that that. NPR. You have to look at NPR coverage as a whole and you couldn't expect need to be reporting about what it happens in New York on 9/11 when I'm in. -- on Pakistan I mean that you know we've got a New York for you bureau that was covering that story but. The first thing that happened was -- not an editor. But of energy revered colleague of mine would be in like one of my uncles at NPR it was this very weird scene when. -- And we made the same mistake that the Soviets made before us and that we made in Iraq. Which is to think that when you capture the capital of the country. You've got the country. And this wasn't the case it wasn't the case first of all because if they'd known anything about Afghanistan it -- understood that these of the military planners. That and the real capital of the country was kind of car they -- was like a shadow capital where it's not where -- mullah Omar basically kicked upstairs the people that he didn't want bothering him while he was running. The government from -- are so we gave people these ministries but they they were not running the government he was in other parts of capturing Kabul to communal lines. And the second thing is that Afghanistan as a whole has often use this real interesting trick to survive when it gets. Invaded which is that it dissolves itself as a nation. It reduces you know there's this social contract and will we have done the social contract and pretty much. Put our marvelous of sovereignty into the bowl. And we forgotten where are -- the Afghans always keep their hands on their marble and win that bowl comes under attack at a bowl of nationhood. Comes under attack they take the marble back and they become a tried again when they become a plan they become family. And so when the capitalist captured what happens is Afghanistan dissolves into. Other. Units of social organization so there was this hiatus. That you may remember. Between the fall of Kabul in November of 2001. And the fall of the Taliban regime. And I went up to the border and it became clear to me quite quickly that you know the top on hadn't fallen. And they still owns Honda al-Qaeda was still Manning checkpoints and people were getting -- For you know being involved in anti Taliban. With you know whatever you wanna call it. Opposition and I reported that and I got eighths -- letter. From this colleague of mine. My adored and who told me you are disseminating Tom on propaganda and you have got to tell your listeners that you're interviewing. Pro bin Laden people cause why else would they be leaving Afghanistan when. When that regime is manifestly falling in I'm thinking. We've got these this stuff that's coming out of our bombers right you know in their village terrified villagers and they can't be running away from this bombing I mean. Or you know I'm watching trucks cross the border full of how these guys are pro bin Laden and even more complicated as I say in the book is pros. Taller than necessarily the same as pro bin Laden I was realizing that these are different and that's what I was trying to report and he didn't get it and I was really shocked because this guy who had been out there. And then what happened is outside. Ride in to conduct -- and I hear from. I had been detailed a bodyguard buy. And some other you know basically my best sources among this hodgepodge. Anti Taliban militia thing. Who were had been gleefully pulling my leg the whole way which you will also read about. But they did give -- bodyguard who had been involved in fighting and so. I was aware that something weird happened because President Karzai had appointed this other guy to be governor whose names and keep and then all of a sudden monarchy is not going to be governor in this guideline -- eyes and the governor and I knew that there -- been some hanky hanky. In -- so I asked him how did this happen. And he describes you know I'm thinking about a radio -- so I'm I need some imagery you know what it it looked like. And so he describes these pick up trucks charging across the plane in the dust that they are rising and you know our throwing up behind them and that. Guns sticking out every window and I knew that there was a group of special forces soldiers -- with this proxy militia. That was no secret and I had reported on already so I asked him you know what about the Americans and what I pictured was you know. She like takes the bit in his mouth and charges offer on the to do they incur deaths. And I was speechless I said oh my god you know -- we are here is the nation building process that the eyes of the world are riveted on. And which made the move quite a long way to determining what this 21 century is gonna look like. And were starting it out at cross purposes to ourselves and so I wrote this into my story. And -- I get it mixed. -- it wasn't the whole story but it was a part of the story and to be fair I've looked at the strip since. And it was a -- it wasn't the clearest script that I've ever written in my reporting career but bear with me I had taken. You know part in -- you know cleaning the riff Raff out of you know. Al-Qaeda Ericsson all of the stopped and I had had about. For a half hours to put together this piece. Saying there was one special. A group of forces US forces supporting one goals. And another supporting and that's like in other words that time at that point didn't belong to the album -- album."