Title: Here and Now for Monday, October 5, 2009

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" I'm running young it here and now officials in Pakistan are wondering how -- suicide bomber. Made his way this morning into the heavily fortified UN food compound in Islamabad killing five. Meanwhile questions are also being raised today about the use of US troops in far flung outposts in Afghanistan. Meant to stem the flow of insurgents from Pakistan. After eight American soldiers were killed this weekend when 200 insurgents attacked their poorly protected outpost. Military officials have been planning to close the post because of a similar attack last year that left nine US soldiers dead. And sparked several investigations including one launched just last week by General David Petraeus and if you Central Command. After complaints from the father of one of the soldiers killed. Well the Washington Post untaxed this whole story in a three part series and a joint report with CBS news tonight. Greg Jaffe is national security reporter for the Washington Post and also author of the forthcoming book the fourth star about four American generals. Grade let's start with this past weekend devastating but also eerily familiar. So first of well why haven't those troops been removed as planned."

" You know -- a bunch of things and there's active politics aren't -- military bureaucracy and and -- Hardest part was just a shortage of cargo helicopters pulling out of those bases is a complicated and dangerous endeavors he's gonna do it quickly. And that means amassing a -- cart or helicopters to get there what had of their past which are very vulnerable when you're leaving."

" So there's a shortage -- helicopters that you mention the politics who understand. Afghan officials wanna US troops to stay in this outpost for the elections so that what they would be Aruba a bad signal."

" I think so you know we dated wanna look weak and they didn't wanna look like they were ceding ground to the Taliban right before the election."

" And into military strategy let's talk about that the criticism is that these troops in these far flung outposts. -- will protected why."

" It's just really hard to resupply you look at the outpost that was attacked on Saturday. It can only be re supplied by air you can't get armored vehicles or pound piece on the broad consumer to to narrow."

" So those guys are fairly alone out there and it takes because it's so -- even to get attack helicopters up there to defend them if they get attacked that takes a very long time."

" And the terrain plays into that because the Taliban can get higher than the US troops."

" They can and that it's very gators stopper helicopters up there even because the high mountains. Search analyze the helicopters that kind of -- of the valley statistic can't fly over the mountains -- opportunities to us."

" So these troops were above the US troops always giving them the advantage which brings us to the attack of a year ago in July of 2008. When the same thing happened about 200 insurgents attacked an outpost in one not killing nine US troops -- and and we know a lot more about that now because of several reports that have come out so. For fuel what to military investigations. Tell us about what happened that day why were those troops so unprotected."

" You know it was one of those missions that they were trying to get it at the end of the deployment the last two weeks. Another played very hard to get to carry her to resupply --"

" In fact they had no construction material for which to build a base that you really have a base they weren't protected at all because. The Afghans that was supposed to drive in refused to do it."

" Right so once that happened it was very hard for the military to sort of react they had a choice at that point where I guess they could cancel commissions. But they felt like it was important enough to continue to press on. But it -- very hard to resupply -- so you know they're running out of hand bags they're running short on water just a lot of problems."

" Well we know a lot about this in part because of a father. Who need more answers after his son was killed in that battle -- not a year ago this is dated -- retired military he was the father lieutenant Jonathan Brewster and one of the two skilled. And because -- questions the senior Bruce from past we know a lot more about what happened that -- put a devastating battle."

" It's true and you know he is in the unique position because he's a retired colonel how to do the right questions to ask. And he knew -- ask them to."

" also surviving troops describe a horrible battle US troops continually falling their comrades picking up their weapons. But the insurgents close enough to even hear them speaking the US troops completely overrun. What more to the father asking questions fine now."

" I think you found out that commanders just did not do a good job supplying troops -- troops the basics that they needed to it to survive out there. He also found out that. You know unmanned aerial surveillance was pulled. From the mission about two days and -- have to emissions because they were just other priorities."

" Well and David Bruce from again -- father of lieutenant Johnson broad -- had a hint of this. Before this attack at one night his son had come home on leave for a visit and they lived in Hawaii. And -- in -- video from another post this was at bella another outpost before they moved to one it's a video he'd taken a fellow troops. And you describe a powerful exchange as the father watched this video with his son what what was on the tapes what what happened."

" Well -- that affected the southern most was this constituted spot take -- anatomy up announced its earlier that day."

" That night in order to camp fire which is just it's really just a pinprick of light."

" In the area where -- those guys. So they call and artillery -- and electrons for strike which is incendiary weapon on opposite. To -- have there father becomes very disturbed. Insist had to you know those guys were enemy."

" And the -- basically. -- and everybody's enemy."

" The father and it was very disturbs you know -- you know those guys -- the -- just local villagers something like that and that this entourage just don't understand. And she -- direct I don't understand I'm worried really worried."

" triggered what what questions to trigger at that point."

" In his mind actually can trigger what -- conduit here you know basically here in this little tiny outpost in the middle of nowhere. They're not really doing anything other than protecting themselves in trying to fight -- the enemy I think it didn't make sense to him he couldn't understand what they were achieving or. Or are really trying to --"

" In the original purpose of these outposts was to interrupt insurgent travel from Pakistan and what was that even working."

" I think it worked initially but as the area became more violent and more dangerous it stopped working. In the church ended up just kind of protecting themselves and actually if you look at the outpost embarrassed and it was attacked on Saturday that's exactly what was happening."

" Well this father David Bruce from. Did more than just as questions he filed for closer review of deaths at one. This again a year ago he began talking to a military historian who is doing a report. For the military. And David Brewster has since accused. A close friend of his who'd been his son's brigade commander as well as his son's battalion commander of negligence. And as he said just last week because of that David Petraeus asked for a review. Arnold agree Jeff you would think the impact of these two attacks one this past week and when a year ago. What do you think the impact is. Or has been in the case of a year ago on the thinking about Afghanistan."

" Well I think it's forced commanders take a hard look at what they're doing and especially at these. Small outposts in kind of remote areas that are dominated by the enemy that has asked -- what are we achieving here are we achieving anything are we basically. To sort targets out here. And if we're not achieving anything. You know we've got to do now."

" How many other US troops are in still in these outpost despite decision to pull them out."

" I don't quite know they decaf number and it's hard to know I'm -- probably half dozen of these outposts out there yet they tend to be platoon -- company decides. 6800."

" You know people in each one. And meanwhile what's happened to David Bruce from the father who began raising questions a year ago."

" Well this week he's scheduled to fly to Fort Leavenworth to meet with them -- three star general. General Petraeus has pointed to leave this investigation and I think he'll lay out his case. That incensed tank commander and his sense brigade commander who happens to be a close friend of his. We're negligent in. Attempt to --"

" That's great death he he's national security reporter for the Washington Post he's also author of the forthcoming book the fourth star about the lives of four prominent army generals. Great thanks so much for speaking with us. Former Federal Reserve Bank chair Alan Greenspan was back on TV this past weekend. Telling ABC's George Stephanopoulos that he thought last week's jobs report was pretty awful. But that there is a silver lining in the economy and no need for another stimulus package yet. Our next guest asks why is anyone listening to Alan Greenspan or as John Kesey wrote last week before Greenspan's weekend punditry. A formal renunciation of the Greenspan doctrine is long overdue. And that the economic crisis was not just an indictment of Wall Street it was a failure of economic analysis on the part of economists like. Alan Greenspan. Who has been -- today with John Cassidy he writes for the New Yorker Magazine and is also author of the upcoming book how markets -- the logic of economic calamities. And John just start with your further thoughts on seeing Alan Greenspan not just yesterday the playback over and over again today."

" Our greatest unless they have run and never goes away really want might have thought given he's dress code over the last few years in that media organizations stop inviting him on but I guess given that he was chairman of the Federal Reserve for twenty years. He's such a big figure that media book that journalists always went to -- news but in other factors most of his economic views have been discredited at the last few years."

" the owners had a hand in the in the in the economy the last few years and and has a voice now other people in the White House that somewhere and did the same thing that looks lay -- your thinking. You write that from the late 1990s on. Under Greenspan the Fed stubbornly refused to recognize that speculative bubbles in Los things betting on things like sliced and -- bad mortgages. That these bubbles encourage the spread of rationally. -- rational behavior. When it's explain that more."

" Well Greenspan's argument was so is that you didn't have to worry about speculative bubbles in the stock market or in the housing which is what we had obviously the last few years. He said it was better for the Fed to just sit it out when the bubble that best. They couldn't cut interest rates sent restore the economy to prosperity but it wouldn't be a big shock to the system. What am -- accurate well to a they have other economists now -- is that that's not right but if you are a speculative bubble that developed in -- thing. You would encourage people to indulge in all sorts of very damaging activities such is that one you mentions securitize subprime mortgage is. People buying homes they can't afford people on Wall Street investing in things they don't really believe that."

" And then subsequently this I just gonna get to this rationally. Irrational -- music you explain what ends up happening is. That banks and investment houses start taking these huge risks because everyone else is taking these huge risks."

" I think except into the the phrase I use freshman irrationality. Its because of an individual basis it's quite rational for these bankers and CEOs to take big risks. In fact it's some more risky for them not to get involved in the bubble because in the short term. Very profitable to trade these securities. And to take on more risk. Jealousy over the big bank -- you don't do it in your competitors do. Chances though you'll be out of a job before the bubble burst. And so on an individual level it's quite irrational thing to do to play itself the problem is the phrase I Houston but obviously collective plates. It's completely irrational leads to sort of this sort of -- seventy that we so -- to test them before 2006. When you know people who had no income no jobs no assets were getting we're getting mortgages."

" Well but as you further explain. People like Greenspan word believing in the teachings of Milton Friedman adding Smith that markets were -- regulating -- whole invisible hand thing. Well we come back and take a quick break but I want you to talk about what she tell us now. They you say they turn away from their traditional role we'll set this up before our break. It was a punchline having something to do with a punch double what what was the traditional role of the Fed said to be."

" Are willing McChesney Martin who is the Fed Chairman during the fifties and sixties he said the -- decided to take away the -- both just as the party gets going IE to be just post both. Stop these -- and rational exuberance on Wall Street responded to that."

" Well we'll find out more about what you and other steel should happen not just to Greenspan but. How about professors and schools like Harvard and other teaching the economy we're gonna go from here how do you regulate. That. Rational or rationality. Thank you say this is New York magazine writer John Cassidy. In his upcoming book how markets -- the logic of economic calamities we'll talk more about. The one we're sort of on the fringe of -- in one minute package that in here and."

" Funding for here and now comes from the math works creators of -- lab and simulate technical computing software. Dedicated to accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science worldwide on the web at math works dot com."

" Welcome back to recover station with New Yorker writer and longtime business reporter John Cassidy who's written recently about what really makes. The economy so crash prone and John you just telling us have. In the past thinking about the Federal Reserve the -- take away the punch bowl you know before the party crash but you also said that. The role traditionally of the Fed has been to ensure employment and as stable prices but you others -- suggesting. To add to that that the role should be to monitor risk how to do that."

" Right parliament it's part of a broader point the Fed the Fed and Greenspan people who traditionally taken the view that you know the free market pretty much so -- think. My argument and the argument of -- the some of the people. Is that that's not true in financial markets and free market is a very good job of supply and most notably goods and services such as clothes food golf clubs or whatever. But it doesn't do a very good job of providing financial products and from the financial services because it is prone to two bubbles speculative bubbles. So my argument -- say it but undermines Tibet troubles should have been saying this. Is that the Fed should also be formally given the job of prevention speculative bubbles and maintaining financial stability at the moment it's formal mandate. Is to maintain stable prices that does tired but I employment as possible. So well what I've -- position this two 22. To the -- Mandate in order to I'm prevent outbreaks of financial crisis that we've seen in the last few years."

" To do that the New York Times has a timely report today from page of peace we had recommended on Simmons the mattress company. Now aren't yet they are they gonna file for bankruptcy bankruptcy protection even as the company's been bought and sold seven times the last when used by. Private investors could then turn around and used it as a piggy bank borrowing money against it actually. Homeowners in -- against their homes."

" Yeah I mean it's it is that the rise of leveraged -- just sort of a separate questions to the that rises speculative bubble but it does show what I should be at and that's. It's sort of justify the most. Skeptical approach to Wall Street if they're free market economy if you believe the world level Wall Street is duties usually good for the economy the financial markets exist stiff financed. But the businesses and to help innovation and growth. Well we've seen at places like seventh that it actually the investment bankers and the leveraged buyout firms were just and it's sort of put themselves in other inmates. There were motivated by making short term profits of racial term horizons. And they exploited they have -- credit markets to. You know putting enormous amounts of debt on these companies to let them toward another for a few years. They'll let excellent phase but they -- to the process Simmons mattress and many other companies. Let bankruptcy and I was staggering under enormous debt. And they haven't actually been invested in very much these companies don't -- to invest for the future they tend to from the company's -- very short term profit."

" Really some Wheeling WII don't that I live in that's."

" A very large question I don't say -- directly -- should be out. It should be bound. -- from the world some people might say that. My argument is more intellectual one that we need to take -- more skeptical view overall -- And except involves limited facilities activity is certainly have eliminating some of the tax breaks there are far. Taken on debt which exists throughout the system but the moment and that's probably good I think that this setting the first thing to do is this that it's an intellectual matter. People always say that would account restrict these things that that's been created with a market. In some cases into the markets not the wrong thing to do it's the right thing to do."

" And as you quote in another column from a year ago. People should pay more attention to -- ski speaking of course and the economist -- said. You know unlike Milton Friedman -- Adam Smith he said bankers traders and other financiers. Periodically play the role of arsenic sitting -- economy unfunny."

" Right Rhode -- very interesting guy to do it wasn't just an economist EST work for a bank in Saint Louis some ideas so he knew how they figure -- the industry -- from the inside. And that made him almost skeptical about banking and finance -- near -- Jeremy university economist. He's so -- first time that the banks could are driven by competitive pressures to lend to companies that don't deserve it and people go through during -- And then -- boasts -- receipt of the moment. To lead to refused to lead to people who do deserve it. -- he had a much more skeptical approach and I and might feel much more realistic approach the financial system. And -- the strong supporter of the idea that the financial system should be much more heavily regulate it."

" Well and and how far would you go again we've been asking you know -- which you suggest. You mention at one point that economists you know inside the Fed you feel that and perhaps Greenspan should be obliged to somehow. Don't recognize his fault but also outside he -- is coming in of their being a legal way. To get -- economists who somehow. Don't see the problems."

" Well I think is senate setting is mainly an intellectual a matter of intellectual debate here permanent. We need some sort of national recognition that the policies we've Foley we know we follow -- not to do obviously -- little. -- but nobody's ever gonna go -- with it could have been -- Ben Bernanke is. So there repudiate a bit of what he did in the past but not properly and that on the economics profession and anything general as far as I can see is largely -- denial. I mean the biggest economic debate within their -- profession at the moment presumptuous about whether the stimulus package works. And arguments -- used against the stimulus package of very similar to the arguments that we used in favor of deregulation. So the united I think it's possibility QA out of this city it's an intellectual dispute as much senate."

" Well but and and just in the minute or so we have left how much should it go beyond the intellectual disputed as you look of the Obama administration is proposing. Regulatory overhaul just tick off a few things that confronted."

" I think you know they're the Obama administration proposals they're good stops. When they -- to do when they got to care about the minister this year myself a lot of other people thought they seemed rather modest given the scale of the problem. That things like committed to impose a big no leverage ratios some banks but designed to hold more capital. Forcing them to hold on to some of the securities say it is that they produced. But okay -- the very border at various sensible but possibly not enough territory straight Wall Street. Now however the political climate change the last six months and it looks like it even those very modest policy does not going to be introduced."

" Organized congress just -- just -- to trust them so this stage of my argument I would say you know let's get the Obama. There about. Regulatory reforms in place haven't -- put them. Look what that he's been beefed up at various -- I think they do but I doubt that this state the political climate has shifted so much to even vote should -- looks like they're in danger."

" In some of people believe that the eagle opportunities is being missed and my. The larger question of it."

" actually call for help."

" That's an American magazine writer John Cassidy Jun Lee Angela when you -- these do it again thank you so much thank you read about his upcoming book how."

" Markets -- logic -- economically -- second hearing. Former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan is in Kenya today. Calling on the coalition government to speed up reforms promised after post election violence back in 2008. More than thirteen hundred people died when president but like Kibaki and opposition leader in -- Dingell both claimed victory. Under the power sharing deal brokered by Annan Kibaki is president Odinga prime minister. Political reform is not the only problem facing Kenya right now. Relief agency aid agencies say an estimated twenty million people need assistance because of the worst drought in a decade. A drought which is also killed thousands of animals devastating herders who depend on them for incoming food. The BBC's East Africa correspondent will Ross reports from -- in northwest Kenya."

" But I can tell you driving around to common district is extremely homework. Yeah coming through the car window is like a load of head try as blasting in your face. The landscape is desert like just about the only sign of life here for a few homes dotted around circular mop -- we've browse. The sand everywhere and very little vegetation just a few Brown's ability shrubs."

" And this dry sandy riverbed to common men and women of -- The -- on one side most wearing amounts in a brightly colored necklaces. The men are on the other with traditional checks clock time around one shoulder -- style. They're role in a crisis that animals are dying in alarming numbers. And almost order it was about -- the -- although Indy goes on a date. He's lost it'll turn it into. But hang him on -- dividend -- noted if any would be most. -- Confessing -- Ghazi of the organization fits without borders tells me why the death of these animals is hitting the economy people so Hans."

" Seventy profits over the gun at the bottom possibly with. The entirely rely on livestock. Let's talk they get to me but let's took the kicked me whom it took these said he left a commitment by and other. I Timbaland and basically just. Let's talk is the -- in -- everything they hop and never -- old."

" They couldn't. Figure it. And this is suddenly not a site for vegetarians. Now have a number of -- of being thrown into this dry riverbed. -- coming forward with small knives and slitting the throats. The number of them yesterday said it died already in these -- of every week. And in the women are picking up the take notes and dragging them across and putting them on top of some believes that have been laid out on the on the riverbed. And this is a huge now open and butchery."

" Jessica improperly used has taken metal bracelet -- risks she's sharpening. Its thesis and is now scanning a go to. And it's not only the codes that are dying to -- have been brought it be slaughtered even these normally drought resistant preaches the succumbing to the effects of the drought. The campus in dying Ghazi this is an especially worrying sign of how bad the situation is he says the decision to -- a week Campbell. Is it very hard one for the to comment a combo is the most insistent. The noise that's a layup the last and so it is a settings it depends on the -- You see the credit problems. Yet to really know it depends opens. In them in modern times -- common people are also in trouble because they live in a region where the violent theft of livestock is rife. As the drought persists there's more competition for the good land in the violence has escalated. Jersey for -- of an organization called Maria -- which aims to protect the interest of the -- people. Is that the life of these Huntsman he's gonna get worse because the climate is changing."

" Something significant that's. -- that we've gotten along it's a disease that -- painful so much increase of them protest you can that's what quarter climate change. And it gets voted coming with us."

" People here tell me that the last decent rainfall was in the middle of last year it's no wonder that some people here say god has become angry."

" That report from the BBC's will Ross in Kenya. Take a second thorough minder you know you can always listened to a program streamlining our web site here -- or -- Where you can download a podcast of the program you can take this with you where he went down. -- it here and now downward. Up next Singapore and China is taking a futures on higher -- what does that mean for the US in thirty seconds."

" American colleges and universities are considered the best in the world the primary destination for foreign students. But changing the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development reports that the US does host a fifth of international students. But that's down from a quarter of those students in 2000. Part of the reason might be that while the economic slump has led to cuts public universities in the US. Asian universities are pumping more money than ever into their higher education Karen Fisher is with the Chronicle of Higher Education Karen. Some of the signs that tell you that the dominance and he was universities might be eroding."

" I think it's still true that -- that sort of the top of the -- and just about every academic core research quality indicator but. I think what people are a little bit concerned about is the -- and we're nine improving and that the rate than maybe some other countries are that we kind of holding steady. And so for example we still produce more scientists and engineers than almost any other country. But we really haven't produced anymore in you know 2005. And we -- ten years earlier. Where's the Chinese I mean they've just skyrocketed. The 1995 they graduated 3500. Students with doctorates and science or engineering today they graduate almost 15000. And so it's just that kind of dramatic -- that I think has people really worried."

" Well until -- say countries like China had more to grow we have to have much further to go but you have. Other stats the US share of highly influential research papers filled with 58%. In 2003 from 63%. In 1998. 4% of American College graduates majoring in engineering that's compared to 13%. In year 20% in Asia. So there is some concern but you do -- people who who also say the sky isn't falling because they say for instance there may be more Asian degrees but many of them don't meet US -- standards."

" Yeah I think that is something that people point out. And I think the other thing people will point out is their country's doing better doesn't necessarily mean that the United States is getting worse because. Then their alarm -- smart that are trained people out there in the world you can tackled tough problems like. You know climate change or hunger or. Infectious disease. They hinted that it benefits everybody if these countries are doing better."

" Well and who you in the chronicle looked at house and Asian countries are doing better investing in higher education. Start with Singapore what are they doing one thing that's Singapore is doing is really trying to work with. The best of the best internationally it working for example with MIT. Two to start some research institutions there. They're really trying to put more money into their education system to really create a number of world class institutions that are in both China and Singapore. Can planned education goals have to fifty years in the future because it's a top down system as opposed to. From the universities up is that safe to assays from the government. Yeah I mean and the bad sentiment I think one thing people would -- as a benefit of a centralized system as it. You know the government says this is what we're gonna do and they spend the money -- it happens it happens quickly. For example I talked with us senator Lamar Alexander the former secretary of education he told me historian -- going to -- to China and meeting with the president there. And this is about five years ago and the bailout talks actually a lot about these very issues that we're talking about how to be more globally competitive. So just happened in China in May -- investments and they spent the money and where is here. When they assembled a panel and the panel debated and discussed what's going on and in higher education and particularly in science and engineering. Then they issued a report senator Alexander and his colleagues in congress took the report -- could do that went through Canadians. And got amended and debated and passed one house and not the other and then it finally hit the president's desk and than had to get funded and so it was a much more cumbersome process here and -- it. But he he would actually argued that. There's of certain benefits to this process can and the more open debate versus. -- is dictating this is ever gonna do an assistant -- going Willis stay with the process that he described this is the American competes act was passed in 2007. What happened when they posted but they didn't actually fund the bill right and so I think there's a little bit of a lag between. The actual legislation going forward and the money it is violent and they have put my money into the bill but it still hasn't done. Kept up with I think what the sponsors of the legislation like senator Alexander conceived and -- and what did they -- for me really -- that we'd be able to make. A big dent in. Higher production of scientists and engineers and really be much more aggressive so that we weren't. In holding that steady Steve but that we worked like a China our Singapore or Hong Kong really leaping four and their argument list. It's the people who have the best brains in the most cutting edge technology that can -- and so. We need to keep that advantage in this country so Lamar Alexander says it's a better process because it was more democratic but it still ultimately didn't seem as if it got. As much and as. Direct order from. Let's say the Chinese Government. You compare today to post World War II when federal support for academic research quadrupled. In the seven years after the launch of Russia's sputnik. Does and you say this that. Is possible now. People are optimistic that the president has been talking about that's and he got in front of congress earlier this year and he said. People who won a three critical things that can happen for us to really -- the economic futures we need to invest in education. So I think people -- optimistic but it's a pretty cautious too because it's very difficult in this country to develop the kind of national strategy that we've been talking about Indonesia well president -- we spoke about education. But he's proposed spending. Twelve billion to improve the colleges. And the stimulus package includes money for student need an academic research so there's some movement carry some movement on the federal level and I think people are heartened by the fact that. President Obama is talking -- at colleges and universities is dissing them he's paying attention to them. But the real challenge I think is that it's very difficult for the federal government to have a lot of sway on these issues. Because they don't go -- a couple of leverage they don't. Even though the president is proposed spending this money on Community Colleges. Still most of the money for it. For higher education particularly public education is coming either from -- mission -- from state government. The fact is that the share of higher education funding for state has been steadily going downward the last several decades. Does anyone suggests that a greater investment in higher education. Will lead to economic growth that's exactly what we're seeing in Asia. They're treating this article -- that investing in education is going to be critical to their economic futures. Mean economists would caution that it's a little bit more complicated than that there's things like tax policy and trade and just sort of it. General climate and innovation that kind of goes into the mix of making economies -- competitive but he do you think that the economic situation is -- helping spur of the conversation and making people more aware of it but. The difficulty in this country and it is to get people on the same page and living in the same direction on these issues that Karen Fisher of the Chronicle of Higher Education talking about a possible slippage. In America in higher education and Asia. Rises Karen thank you so much thank you."

" Support for here and now comes in part from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve the chance to live a healthy productive life information gates foundation dot org."

" Welcome back. This summer she turned fifteen New Yorker Michael -- beautiful and bright daughter Sally. Went man she probably been going man had for years but one day in a playground near the east village apartment she shared with me dead in his second life. Sally was convinced that two little girls spoke to her telepathically. And soon Michael who was a struggling writer and his wife had cancer along with tallies biological mom Robin Baker living in Vermont. All we descending with Sally into the incomprehensible world of mental illness."

" Or pulses racing we strain to absorb the sheer volume of energy pouring from tiny -- She jabs at the year thrusts out action. A cover up performance -- the overwrought guest spot forcing utopia down the throats of reports subjects. But it isn't a performance. -- drive to communicate. Is so powerful. It's tormenting. Each individual word is like a toxin action must -- about it."

" Michael Greenburg writes about that summer and beyond in his book hurry down sunshine which is now out in paperback we spoke with him in the book first came out. And asked when he first realized that something was so wrong."

" In retrospect. There were some earnings. Tremendous kind of explosive -- is coming out of soundly. Which I thought where. Within the realm of adolescent behavior on some issues fifteen years or in fact I thought more than that I was actually delayed it when she was way she was. -- Shakespeare's sonnets incessantly. Writing in the margins were looking up everywhere and listening on a walkman in those days this was 1996. Two box Goldberg variations and continuous loop I thought well this is the F fluorescence. Of my doing."

" What parent wouldn't be delighted Shakespeare and Barak and she was so Clinton and she was that you know had a way with words. But then what what was that break down day --"

" We felt as if we've been overtaken force of nature was completely prepared for -- order I think that it was what it was. Sally. Had a vision. She had him. World saving generous vision which was that we -- born geniuses. And that Shakespeare heroes at that moment. Well an exceptional they would just people who managed to hold onto the genius that would give him in infancy. -- If she could impart this. To the entire world we would be saved the suffering. That the profane ness of living in society drums this out of us and she tried stopping traffic on Hudson street west village. But to impart this to the drivers of the car was pulled onto the sidewalk my friend she was with -- time. Brought home by police."

" And there is me he called reasoning knock down drag out fight she attacks and I mean there's a physics talent that comes of it she. -- that you face. And meaning the image that we have read this is -- just. This is your flesh and blood possessed."

" This is also so stabbing. This person who would learn to speak from me. Who was as close to me in a frame of reference is anyone could be could become. Impenetrable. And I found her delusions -- impossibility. To connect with me to presume I'm pretty manic conversation kept hoping for some remission -- perhaps she'd taken for you're hoping it's drugs and you're hoping it's done -- would be disturbing. Under normal circumstances to parent we're actually make great hope because -- it offered temporary solution temporary explanation as to what had happened."

" But you and pat your wife Sally step -- dude gets down to emergency room she goes with this sort of combination of computer business as a queen would it. But you also see windows of fear what to tell you there."

" Selling is manic depressive. And their presentation was was severe mania -- and kosice. Her symptoms were classic. Apparently and and I couldn't. Have them put the resident psychiatrist when we went to the emergency interest finally seen psychiatric resident. Could save -- after a 92 interview with Sally. She has manic psychosis can -- hospitalized immediately this is a medical emergency. Later I came to realize that you could in fact to a psychiatrist. The symptoms were -- clear -- would be to our general practitioner."

" Will family is hospitalized in her world this crazy toxic world. Starts to seep into you you have physical fights with your wife that you harmed -- without. At one point you decide you're going to take salaries medication which is heavily medicated to see how she feels what were you thinking. But also you know how did you feel it."

" Filters approved had a big part in the play that was called the play of my life. And I was watching it from the wings and not only was my part tiny but I missed my -- go on stage it's as if the only experience if you like is happening. With few. As a dull observe this is what people who off limits. People have spoken to Sally herself when she read the book psychiatrists. -- told me -- some very accurate description. This kind of seeing life through plexiglass screen him."

" great sympathy for what she had to go through to get as Willis he cannot. But -- announcement occasion yes it was a little crazy to take it I admit it but -- but my frustrations was after -- left the hospital."

" I wanted my. My daughter. And I kept trying to reconnect with currently trying and trying I would fan it was like watching death over and over again it was a breach happened to me. And so. In the context of that frustration. I said if I can't get her to come to me I'm gonna go -- and take the medications it was in that context than they did that man."

" Crazy thing but I'm glad I did become because I got the sense of what she had to contend to."

" You know mania is on its first in its first day is a medical emergency. And one has to be wrenched out. And what is -- at these very crude. Medications."

" And second transformational -- as astonishing as the first the first transmission to mania."

" Which stunning. Second transformation. To this Medicaid."

" He has Medicaid zombie with mania kind of reeling under the surface like -- zipper bag."

" She goes through that zombie period she -- Chinese schools she has tremendous successes. We wanted to post script she lost -- marrying. She setbacks. She separates. But house telling him."

" It's a chronic illness and and she constantly has to do with the looming possibility. -- crack up beyond that she is a wonderful. Young woman who. He's a caring friend. And a wonderful valued member of our community. And I don't choose tragic figure it all however. Aspects of a life afforded. Three steps forward and then she has to to treat."

" Intel still lying isn't that tragic news."

" illness is an aspect of who she use in who we speak of mental illness in a different way and we say. I have diabetes. I have cancer. Am schizophrenic. Manic depressant it's almost as if unconsciously in the way we speak if it quit talking about it aspect of being. And so. How can I look upon selling his very being. As tragedy."

" Michael Greenberg his book hurry down sunshine probably the title because I think at the song hurry sundown the wonderful people Mary song it does come from a -- of blues song and it's a guy named satan in the deep south can't wait to go to Chicago -- going to Chicago."

" He -- hurry down sunshine and see what tomorrow brings we can get on the train. And to me the phrases about the scorching. Right. Counter intuitive sun not the -- under the scorching summer mania. That gave this kind of burning bright Vista sound it's an -- patient -- down -- chance we can get to the -- sunlight to review. --"

" Let's just see what and okay. Michael Greenburg author of freedom from any conversation we had read his book first came out of town and back. Your nose of production WBUR Boston in association BBC world service and -- I'm loving him please join us again here and now."

" Funding for here and now comes from the Nellie -- education foundation. Presenting sponsor of the grant makers for education national conference this week in Chicago featuring education secretary Arnie Duncan. -- international."