Title: Tracy Kidder: “…faith that looks through death”

" I'm Christopher -- the master storyteller Tracy Kidder. Found a kernel of inspiration. The continent of bad news is open source from Watson institute at Brown University. American conversation global attitude is what we do. The bad news in this case is the ongoing mass murder and underlying misery -- Central Africa. Through one neighborhood hard by the killing fields in the Congo today. Inspiration and Tracy Kidder's best selling story of strength in what remains. The only man named -- choice for the let me do breakfast meeting thanks leaving god. Who goes back to his life and -- and wounded two British American medical education services wars survivors. Patricia -- and I are talking about here. Generalize that video story to the scale of the African problem. And apologies from outside the have been anything but a solution."

" Did you get your data again and you've created a sort of world historical character. In this miraculous person dale dale -- yes thanks -- to god. He's -- wounded beyond the limits of endurance. But he indoors not only endurance but he appears to be healing himself. By going to medical school and then returning. To the scene of his family's devastation. In building -- health clinic in what might have been called an enemy community. So many implications here the story with thousands maybe millions. Of individual counterparts around the world but. Would get the implications. Tell us the story of dale."

" Well there's a young medical student in Burundi. That finishing third here or just finished mr. actors working in -- a remote. Village within a very large hospital in the civil war broke out and he narrowly escaped -- but he and his door to his room open -- take. Hiding under his -- of the men who would have killed him thought he had left for an. He then made six months long escaped on foot which took into Rwanda. Where six months after the beginning of civil war in Peru indeed the genocide began kickback from want to cut to the capital Burundi. And with the help of a friend who had a European father he end up leaving the country on Aeroflot. And the and the the New York City with 200 bucks in his pocket no English no friends or relations. And memories of -- so fresh that he sometimes confused past and present and on he had an unsteady time in New York keep for stem simply got lost from lost -- day he. He. The deficit living. Living groceries. He. Slept first and abandoned tenements and and in Central Park. And then thanks to the kindness of strangers. The next contemplative none in and a childless couple. Yeah and in that you know with a family. Living essentially adopted -- them. And less than two years after he'd come to an -- he was enrolled as an undergraduate Columbia University pretty were remarkable but even more remarkable that you -- He began to heal himself through going back to medicine I think you -- going to -- himself but. Starting to -- other people back in his own country does the remarkable thing the most remarkable thing is that they'll. But then he is an American citizen doesn't have to go back. To a country that you know really after thirteen years of civil war is really quite devastated the public health facilities are virtually nonexistent patients are imprisoned. In hospitals if they can't pay their bills and then they went back and many rallied all these American friends has legions of friends and his friends and partners in health -- farmers' organization. And created. A clinic in public health system and rural village. And it's I think it's been a wonderful for him -- it's cost it some things it interrupted once again his medical. Education. And but it's treated 28000 people on its first year and a half it's growing. It's. Beloved by its community. And and and you know provides care free to those who can't afford to pay in what are what moves me about it is that. -- was torn apart by largely artificial differences between two groups of people. Difference is that we're eggs did that were exaggerated for the advantage of the few starting. With the Germans indulgence. To to the Belgians. What day it was done seems to me is that is to offer an antidote to the beginning of an antidote or the beginning of a potential antidote. Which is. -- it -- to build something that is focused on what something unites all of us which is our common vulnerability to illness illness and injury. Our common hope for life. I find this very moving."

" So ago. From the beginning of this story this young man is it he has waking and sleeping nightmares he can't sleep for the longest time he has these. Visions of blood and and this is -- severely. Traumatized. But he and you introduce this sort of the Mac word early on this gruesome -- symbol was -- Muslim what it's hard to remember it but in effect. Dongle that's not. Remember. That out of your mind and he's heard it from childhood and a certain way yeah even before. Particular troubles. I thank you -- just hate that word apart because it is it is so. Not what we've grown up with -- got to remember everything don't."

" Get pride and and if you and if here you have psychological difficulty what you wanna do is confronted with a -- was friends with -- Who thinks that it it knows of no other language and not to say there isn't one that has won a single word for this December a means to remind people of something unpleasant by naming the dead. -- the current deal also going to -- also has another word which is more general which has commenced to remind people of something unpleasant a single word. It's not a good thing to do it's a verb and you -- embarrass someone. It's worse than impolite. So it's not something you wanna do what you know and I found myself writing toward the end of this book as -- as -- went on this relentless. Journey would -- to. Memorial sites to the genocide in London. That in -- a certain point. Of course we have to remember all this it and it and that otherwise there's no hope that that never again will ever be anymore and empty platitudes. But. There's also is that something you know. Too much remembering can step suffocate a person or -- culture. And you know so I think there's also some deep wisdom in in a culture with that board like this -- What."

" Even he says and use it in the book with a profound irony at some point I think you ask him. Would you have a buildup to get a won't people be able to forget this and they said how Long Will it take for the people to forget here and -- And he says. It'll probably take the time that the earth has left -- yes. So America remember about it of course is with us every moment of yeah waking and sleeping -- yeah. It -- says is -- practicing. Ironically you're not. Philosophy -- Let's -- dominant."

" I think and in every sentence mean. I think I think for him the answer. You know he went to Colombia one of the fascinating things about this career Colombia's that he well imagine about chemistry -- in philosophy. -- my techniques that because they wanted to understand what happened to me and Michael students a philosophy he didn't get answers he got more questions. But he did get room and the space and time for his mind. Begin to turn over these questions and and and and tranquility I think -- I think what he found is that is that you know sometimes the answer. Is in your hands you have to do something. So I think for -- it's not have been forgetting. No room at -- and remembering and incessantly. But actually acting you know. Doing something that -- and and and this act -- of building a clinic in public health. System I mean it is of enormous value and that's the main point on oversight and others mean he's. He's he's an effective idealist like his friend and mentor Paul Farmer. But also with his takes you know he tried to do this when he was schools to trying to build a clinic for the test that would serve -- ten people on a month and a -- for help. Repeatedly. So in a way that this -- seems to me like what's -- going back together of elect that was torn into by a war. And I think. But let's I think it is the acting that that. That ultimately it's the solution for and it's not to say that it's anybody else's which. Just that. It I don't notice it astonishes me that he's gone back at all since I can imagine having to on the same thing and its place and has no political and this is my god he just wants. Just wants help this country."

" I want you to help the sort of tease out the the lessons here for. Suffering world mean maybe thirty million refugees. Wondering this world as we speak little. Well it could be you're right I mean many many more boarded the station and all parts of the world to an interest Africa. But I'm thinking I'm thinking this partly in the context of -- for. Nicholas -- on one hand in the New York Times column after column saying we've got to do something saved up for it took us the world must intervene. And on the other hand it to me a very interesting writer at Columbia university and Indian actually who grew up in Uganda. Mumbled on -- And he takes just a very different view. That. We often more often than not make things worse we don't. We have to understand before we act there are African ways of solving these things. And amid populations. Herders and farmers who. Been reacting to drought and each other and change you pays for hundreds and hundreds of years. -- calls it the difference between victor's justice in which the righteous. Powers come in and say you the bad guys you're gonna suffer we're putting your way and the truth and reconciliation notion of hey we all live here we were all in on it we're gonna all be here. For centuries. We better working out among ourselves. In your -- dale. I see a sort of one survivor at a time kind of justice he's going to. Stand up without comparisons without waiting for other people and start. Surviving giving him giving his own example. When we come down between. Our own responsibility. Of the past and in the future. As outsiders. And what is deal telling us about you know. So people can do must do their own."

" Well I don't know that dale has. Released spent a lot of time thinking about these things did you know I think he's he's been really focused on trying to do something. I think if his clinic and his his effort here is you know an instrument of peace a small. Enactment of an in miniature of what Obama was talking about an -- recently when he was talking about African and American corporation mutual responsibility this is. This clinic is perfect example of not. People have been coming from all over the country -- to go to this clinic and even some have been coming from Congo and Tanzania that this village health works. Clinic and and in fact some have come not to not to get. Care but that's but just seeing the place and to -- as one of the -- to see America. To propose a pretty amazing yeah. So but as for me I'm not familiar with that. I have not done the reading on -- fry -- month on the on the rule on that with great interest in and pleasure but. But. I don't know these these views on I mean it is of course it's it's almost a truce and to say that you know you you shouldn't be intervening in places that you don't understand. You know and it's also I think very important for us always to remember that Africa is not one big dysfunctional country. And -- most I can seem to think that. At and it's or many do. You know all these situations are different -- call for something different but. I don't think that we that the west and the wealthy western nations have any right to abandon attempts to try to. Reconcile these things but just to go to the question of truth and reconciliation is a very instinct book about the aftermath of violence in Burundi written by. The yet academic dean and at the Fletcher school here at tufts. You move it. A book I really loved you he would he after that at after the he went and interviewed hole a really good representative cross section of -- Indian society more things that he found it's very interesting it's an absolute. Lack of interest in truth and reconciliation commissions and the feeling what's that people. Who did commit crimes did most did it mostly men talking about the -- the entrepreneurs of violence who -- is in the background in these things but but the but the people who killed out of fear. And and I think the feeling is what I want so at that it is summed up -- something to us at me once they were they were not themselves there was something else. Fear had been enormous. Part to play in in the and the kind of mayhem that went on and that's who works on assured by Brendan Frentzen. And and that was my sense what went opens today he did say I mean people did say they would love to talk to people who were on the other side. But they usually want the other -- apologize for studying you know that. And I think that it. It -- these are very different case from -- that's in another important thing I mean even though you have countries where this Pete -- of the same language in them the same customs same case for banana -- the same religion. Religions. You have a very you have different history different mr. part of which is shroud X and have records of much much much in the way ever -- before colonialism. But -- it was a more fluid society a society in which this ethnic difference was not -- ever is important in part because the place was more complicated. I think. That most for Indians would probably tell you don't wanna talk about this month think of this anymore we would just. We are desperately -- we want to live we're not in Sydney ethnic problems and after roll the majority now owns them the reins of government and actually the -- that that party is in multi ethnic party. I don't think at this of these is is the real deep issue there although some may attempt to make it. Back into one the real deep issue there as you know. The size of the pond and then who who gets the biggest pieces of little tiny -- Men and -- I'm not fearful I think the Burundi's peace is fragile but I think it's been I think one can have hope for. After all you know it's their thirteen years of war. And it was brutal I mean hundreds of thousands on the usual numbers 300000 but I don't think anyone knows for -- As and that's and most of those cases so I don't know. What to say about Darfur and Sudan -- But but I do and I don't even -- put prescriptions to give you from Burundi but I do know. That the kind of thing that that -- started this village health works. It is potentially part of a prescription for peace and I -- believe that Australia underrated and I mean -- I'm gonna take it on faith because I mean I can't prove that. You know."

" may have no better you know better chance. On the question of American hand in this it's not as if the wasn't American training American medicine American ideals and vision of America even if you say the Brazilians can come to the clinic she America it's not that we're not engaged. But there is a difference between. But sort of thing and please forcing or sanctions are all the other instruments that were of course using."

" A look -- and I wouldn't from moment to say that that this was the so of the whole solution I just think it's part of a part of for some of what needs to be done. I think one of the things that often gets overlooked and one of the reasons I admire movements work so much is that. It is certainly true that poverty didn't cause the genocide and Wanda or the or the civil war and Burundi but it was the essential backdrop the essential setting of both of those catastrophes. And if you you simply have to grapple with the -- we're talking about unbelievable poverty unbelievable to us. And and ill health of course that is is only the end result of a lot of other kinds of problems that usually start with poverty. Does Minnesota follow that they're working on health isn't a good way to -- begin to redress some of those problems since after almost nothing really much more basic than that. If for instance if you have desperate poverty and continue have a elite. Vying for power and privilege which have a couple beliefs the beliefs. The stakes are really -- there magnified here in the United States you lose your. Figure party loses the election you go and get a job and I think -- university could -- that. Something that's not that's not it's not that's not what it works and in a very poor country and and -- you've already stockpiled a lot of money in Switzerland I mean it's. The stakes are very -- and the stakes are very big for people sort of in the middle. So you know those countries are by definition -- I'm looking toward a much more enlightened. Foreign policy on matters such as these. Coming from this administration hoping for."

" Somebody in your book and maybe dale. Asked to dope out the lethal violence and the scale of it says at some point it's about -- response to humiliation tubes. Decades generations may be centuries of deep poverty and then. Colonialism to what's the best sorting out you've heard."

" About the causes you know. Well I think that was actually Hussein met them in the best sorting out Tuesday from is just a narrative. I think -- and emotional problems mean that a lot of this history is fixed to -- the people listening to takes quite some of the some of the scholars. Movement seems very open even handed everything fit and I mean you can't did dismiss any single. Cause and anybody who parts on a single cause -- is bound to be wrong you know. And the countries are. Are very densely populated there are harder and they don't have a lot of natural resources the very beautiful. But both Rwanda and Burundi. They're not and as -- said they're not the same. Effective they had that the animals don't like mirror images of each other politically. But I. I don't know I think you have to. Consult both these sources -- unnamed on improvement as a trusted. And completely on on the -- I think he knows the history really willing knows the country really well. And I think he would say it's many many thanks you know that you can't just name one but he would not leave what he called structural violence borrowing a term. Which is that they. Whether it is that having spent a fair amount of time in Haiti with Paul Farmer unfamiliar with that. What's with that both that I -- with its review the reality of -- well I mean you have follow. What -- people are actively killing each other that's dreadful I don't have to minimize the truthfulness of that. But in country like Haiti poem which is not at war you have what what resembles. War every day people dying of -- they call -- an idiot stupid diseases I mean. Just. A massacre of people people kind of you name it you know -- and and and the same is true in Burundi. Stupid illness is things are so easily handled -- People living as this has you know who would worms worms become your friends you know intestinal worms. Kids dying of measles. Dying and mostly dirty water. Horrific rates of maternal mortality each one of which has cascade of catastrophes is a Cuban doctor wants that to me so you know. I think I think I think that's what dale in part is talking about us. Not that necessarily the cause of this war I can tell you the various political events that were the cause of -- of the award. It in this you know if you read the history of colonialism. And you see what the how the Belgians with their divide and rule strategy. Didn't taking what in Burundi at least was a and it an important social difference but not the most important social difference. And exaggerating it for their own use so that they could have. -- cadre of people who would rule in their -- wouldn't have to spend a lot of money running the joint and and and it it it isn't as even once pointed out to me. There was a whole lunatic racist. Idea about seven to do with you know. It's -- the -- of no and so want but what really matters of course ideas matter but what really matters is the institutions that you put in place and what those due to people and to. And the deep and terrible. Discrimination against Hutus and against many Tutsis but. But that was much worse for Hutus and both countries during colonialism. You know in and you had your identity inscribed on -- hard. And so on and so forth and and and that really determine your fate and it also you know among other things to turn over the get the school -- not to a large degree. And then -- and then -- the I mean but amber Andy you had a small tootsie lead. Military the taking over after colonialism and ruling. Through violence and you would you have these uprisings. The majority or parts majority. They can be very brutal horrific and then there'd be put them by the army -- and even more brutal and frequent and that reached its. Apogee and in 1972 when it was a selected genocide animal. Who to intellectuals who could possibly. Compete for power. And insane act and that stoked the fires its instant. I don't believe. And historical necessity but if you read the colonial history in the and you read about that the years immediately following you those seams of the fate of the country was sealed now."

" And they construction of labels and warring identity is mum about that it would say something very similar. Which created by the British census in in Darfur and Sudan. Europe. Europe Arab. I'm African we have the same -- of the same religion book readers are contests built in to. Those distinctions what where do you come out in the end I don't know what this. Constructive difference between Hutus and Tutsis is all about people talk about airlines. -- of knows. Tall squat. Differences and yet. You -- was brought up just just put it aside Protestant. Forget about the don't go there it's dude it's not true it's uninteresting it's up productive -- about it don't bring up again. And it's sort of runs through the book in a way even to the end that where he's -- his clinic is serving user 22 birdies from the conserving Hutus that. We don't know we don't almost don't want to know. What these phrases are all about."

" That I think many people really don't absolutely do not want and now. Also during this time to -- that discussions and ethnicity were virtually taboo. I mean after all. If you were on a member of if you Tutsi in the village you murder outnumbered by your two neighbors and fewer -- he knew that the army was never very far away. -- these people had lived together for centuries and you know -- capacity physical differences those are some of perhaps existence stereotypes but it's always worth remembering that there were people in Rwanda for instance who were. -- were slaughtered and Hutus who because it looked like expose it looked like Tutsis. This was all the nonsense handed down by the militants in home injured people and so on I know Tutsis aren't anywhere near tall enough to be Tutsis by the -- standards. Amid a day goes on looks it on measuring them with the noses. It you know that there's stuff about to come cholera and airlines is utter baloney. And in my view I mean I'm not a I'm gonna -- in one -- but at night I can't speak for them but. And I take it very nervous blather into this stuff myself because. -- what I what I set out to do -- I find an interest in person in the and I get my self interest to in the world that occupies him but he's my first interest. I mean I'm insistent in telling these stories. I I don't have prescriptions for all of these sorts of things. -- you know for interest to our fourth to that the great questions of genocide and and and civil war I don't think anyone does have those answers but if we wanna begin to approach an understanding of -- things I think we need to. Go to various different sources we need theory. We need broad history we need the kind of writing in with. Which people take on the big questions. They may use it Carrick an individual here in there as to illustrate a point but the point about something that matters more than which is the fate of populations. -- get to work kind of the other way around a mom in and I still think that he wouldn't you couldn't understand the Nazi holocaust -- begin to approach an understanding of an issue. Also in addition to all the big books on it also read something like criminal -- the periodic table I think we need all of these things to begin yeah."

" I just get a let's be clear about that and I'm serious note is that there article in the -- policy types but citizens like me. Need. And human frame around which to imagine. Not only his story but the implications. For the rest of us -- wanted to come back to. I mean you're talking about hoping for more enlightened Obama Europe policy for this -- look how might one. I don't wanna make you appears sort of look at statistics but how -- implications of this man's story for building. A policy. Recovery. Development. Health and that's all it senses and in East Africa and elsewhere that tease it out. What does he tell what is -- telling us."

" Holman has that at I think he's telling us that we have to pay attention to. To the actual can conditions of people there we have to we have to pay attention to things like. It was if we wanna talk about corruption for instance we have to think hard about our own part in that. I mean the fact that. Of the United States ties a larger percentage of its aid than any other of the western donor nations taught by -- I mean insist that. That a larger percentage of it go back to American pockets that are projects the USA ID projects. Where half the money never -- Washington. By the time it gets out but clearly gets it never it's like the real -- it never gets to the pew poll. Out there in the countryside. It it doesn't even it is even a trickle we've got to fix that because that's. -- a lot of that is artful. And you know I think we have I think what Obama said about mutual responsibility is correct. I think you have to look at at what they it was done as model to a large degree of what he's. -- what Paul -- what partners in health has done in one day in Haiti in Malawi in the suit to improve. The Soviet in the former Soviet Union and Russia you know I mean. I think you have that you have to get on the ground and you have to have people speak the language you know what's going on. You have to you have to really consult the cut the people you're trying to help. You know find out what it is they think they need and and what they want it's it's not exactly. It's not tremendously complicated it's just a lot of difficult work and it's not the kind of worked it. Some people who -- to -- hope you can't do it in Washington DC you can you can make some changes there that are important. But I must say. The one of the reasons things accuse me great hope is that. You know there was a nasty incident that at this clinic not so long ago in the American response was really wonderful partner the ambassador came out of the clinic. Investment. This understand it -- it's tremendously interest and in Amman. Trying to keep the peace in Burundi. To exert American influence -- update and hope for peace and always fairly novel. Idea and also the fact that the that Paul Farmer is the assistant to Bill Clinton -- the special envoy to Haiti for instance. I think this maybe the first topic the first real opportunity in and our lifetimes and maybe the last. For -- of real substantial progress being made and he's given. Who got -- to people who think about these things love to use that term political will. But -- you know -- the -- of that the political will that seems to be lacking is lacking in the wealthy countries. That may be lacking in the others as well but. That's where we ought to start seems to me and I think that what this administration is showing hope we'll see how it comes out you know but. -- that one little instance gives me great hope."

" There's a wonderful story you tell somewhere about the need to rode around this clinic yeah and they put out bids in the usual contractors come -- sky high. Bids through bring solar equipment and and and a woman comes forth and says. To get to --"

" this -- issue with this is day I was speaking at about his clinic at a at a fund raiser. About the the road that can that goes up this mountain to the that the clinic on a disputed speaking at a fund raiser in New York dale told the story. This past summer we needed some help to make a road that goes towards site passable. A friend of mine told me well dale has a great building construction company that builds roads in Burundi and Rwanda and the Congo and I was so excited. So I went to talk to the representative of the company. He sent someone to look at the road and estimated the cost of at least 50000 US dollars. Not to pave the road but just a wide net and make it passable. I went back frustrated wondering how to tell the kind owns a community this bad news. As I was explaining this to them one woman with a baby crying on -- accent to me. You will not pay a penny for this road we become so much sick because we are -- but we are not -- because we are lazy we will work on this road with our own hands. The next day a 166 people showed up with -- Cisco's machetes and other tools. One of the volunteers with a woman who came to work with the sick child. When a friend of mine and I looked at the baby we saw that the baby was sweating -- then asked the mother when she came to work with the child that's sick and she said to me. Well I've already lost three children and I know this one is next whether I stay at homer come to work here. So it's better for me to join others -- make my contribution. Which hopefully will help to save someone else's child who will be sick but alive when you have a clinic in coming on them. The entire road six kilometers long was rebuilt by these people with machetes and -- The same day the road was finished the representative of the Belgian road construction company called me to negotiate the price. You can imagine how I felt to get that call from him I said to him thinking so much for your call but it's already -- he was obviously shocked."

" And said to me what you mean who did it. We are the only road construction company in the entire region and I said not anymore. I think. In the end you know. It's it's it's all these things have to working concert how you get another development expert how you how you can assemble. On the grand scale the kind of effort that dale and them some other ngos have made you know and and other places. This whole content nation of things going right for a change instead of things going wrong I don't I don't know but a lot of it does have to do with. It dale was very smart about this and making sure that the Swiss that the community had a big day in this and not an -- one of the really interesting things. I think about this is that you know if you if you're doing public health. You have to clean up the -- you gotta do something about sanitation you very quickly have to turn to women's health. It's if it's the -- the biggest problem is poor countries dale when he started this clinic. Made it committee he put a majority of women who thought that might solve the problem but the Tibetan cause. Amended all the talk in the women that'll work so he made two committees against the protests of some of them at. And the women's committee and pretty soon just took over. And I have I mean I have a real. Stay in the running at the clinic and it it makes an enormous difference too often what happens is people start out with good intentions from the western world and -- And they even -- pretty pretty substantial sums of money to do the work attend. Things start to go wrong they -- fleets of suvs for their computers. In the country -- him they they called for big huge conferences of experts many problem. -- even speak to local language and and then they get there -- discover it's really hard to work helplessly he Burundi and pretty quickly declare defeat and in the worst case is what they end up doing. It is but just before they leave they blame the people are supposed to come and help responds. Partisan on there -- dozens and those health works will never do -- make mistakes of course but but usually when they make and they go back to the people themselves. Oh in one way or another mean. And try to figure out what went wrong and only."

" Your menu and says. In other aid workers go into the big houses of breed reestablish a kind of collateral framework and it's."

" They can make things worse I don't. I don't think that the conclusion should be that we that we should. Just give up because it's impossible in fact I mean I consider. Effective foreign -- as a debt that is owed by the west to many of these countries such as Haiti which has been a virtual colony in the United States certainly -- some big debts to too many countries in Africa. But it has to be done differently clearly hasn't worked mean part of the problem may be fragmentation of efforts. -- that certainly seems to me a problem in Haiti where enormous sums of money been spent for. Very small gains on the other hand me I looked -- one of the reasons I'm so moved by partners an elephant which has again as a citizen the inspiration for village approaches that. They they really are effective and that's their whole. MO they're not trying to. These are not middle class employment projects. In Haiti. Right now they're very few Americans working on the project think they have -- three million patients. That they serve directly. They've. You know they haven't solved all the problems but they are trying to define public health in the broadest terms possible -- school. And include you know nutrition and as well as you know clean water and sanitation and medicine. I I think that's a pretty good example -- lean on and you know I'm not the only one who thinks that Bill Clinton thinks that. And Bill Gates seems to thinks that two. Mean the real problem the world today is my friend Jim young Kim no the president Dartmouth one of the founders or partners and outputs and this. It is deliberate. We have an awful lot of tools to deliver we need new drugs of course for TB and so on and so with the with the drugs that we have we could. We could we could really change the world week lacked the will do it seems to me and we don't and we haven't developed. The right ways to do the promises is not think that you know -- one size fits all."

" I you know what that that to address that a slightly different issue if you know monetary it's just occurred to me. You know some people say you shouldn't write. Books like the -- to print which it you know about the bad news from Africa. And I find this a little. -- suspicious woman here this thing if it comes from a listener. Because it sounds to me like a form of political correctness and which is simply a way of but. A kind of self promotion -- possession of knowledge of the rest of you don't have. The the fact is that I don't see how it's gonna do. Countries that are suffering much good to pretend that you know. That that they're great things are happening and the fact is I didn't write a book about Africa I wrote a book about a guy who comes from a country where there hasn't been a lot of good news for the last century so. But has been some limited right about. But -- and and the person wrote about has produced some."

" In an Op Ed world that still arguing about aid versus trade -- acts as you. Got ahead aid to get people to the first rung of the city you know it gets wasted to throw him out. I'm just kind of sort of expand the day you know example of something in place and."

" And one of the problems with doing that the emphasis that. You gotta be really careful you gotta build on on something that's real and it seems to -- and we can't start thinking about human beings. Populations and keep doing things -- pins on -- map the whole. And we do -- I think -- is -- we start to make mistakes certainly. I mean obviously always have to make choices obviously you do have to set priorities obviously do have to say sometimes that one diseases more important than another but if you. If you say as. Was being done for instance in Peru on that. We simply can't deal with multi drug is ending to an end in Geneva. Sadness and we can't deal with multi drug resistant tuberculosis because it's just too expensive and too difficult report interest it was so. -- Well it does exist and it's have and it's a big threat it's growing. So I'm worried about trying to expand too far I think. What we need our you know it's our earnest and competent endeavors. That a focus on -- you know rather narrowly on it we may say okay we want. As Jim Kim said when he went to the V chip for awhile we want three million people in treatment phrase in the countries where there is no it's treatment now. By the year such and such well. That's fine to make such a goal but then you've got to go and do it. On the ground you've got to and in this place in my wanna do it this way and that place to another way and that place to have another. We can learn lessons from one place to another amid a good example is the community health worker model which it paid. People paid and trained people in the country. You know and in question is is what our -- doesn't mean this is what day it was doing in those health -- in Burundi U. These people because certain certain illnesses need to be treated with drugs that have to be taken on schedule on time. You have someone who comes and delivers those drugs and make sure that -- taken -- these people also act as early warning. -- you know -- may be in trouble that they've they've become. Real resources for health and community and they can also addressed you know combatants -- skipped the -- Tuition for the kids to go to school kids choose any food. It's worked very nicely in and in Haiti it's the backbone of that and and it's being employed in her wander right now and partners to I think -- pretty good effect. Mark and -- at. That part is you know we have big problems in this country of course -- health care system partners now has a project term Boston that. And deals with aids patients. Primarily who are not being well served by the standard. Model which is. To bring him into the hospital whenever they get really sick. Participants -- conference that he has been using community health workers here in Boston. Have to have to be paid more and it's it's not a simple us in Haiti and that means and and it's probably one of the more difficult programs in all of partners announced. Galaxy of of of projects but. I do think it's a fascinating technology transfer -- medicine. You know from Haiti where there never was enough to Boston where there may be too much and some I guess Clinton says he's just there are. You can build on this kind of experience certainly and there are things you can transfer from one place to another but to better be careful doing it. We just don't think there is gonna be won -- prescription except that we have to continue to try. And I don't have to continue to try to learn from our mistakes. You know. And we have tape we do have to reform USA idea to keep and the people in US entity which is our principal. Source of -- internationally are on our funding mechanism have to reform. It's not not that the money's not getting -- most Americans have a right to expect to picket."

" educator this is a privilege here inducing without end I have two other questions or wanna ask you sort of on the margins of the story in Africa. I mean we're all reminded that the killing. Along the equivalent of Hutu and tootsie lines. It's still going on in the eastern Congo. And its this is little more complicated than that. Yacht ended but it did do we know do you know does they don't know how to bring that kind of thing to an end no."

" It doesn't I don't I'm not sure who dust pan. I don't know it's terrific. -- it is my opinion underreported because aren't these were was branded war was virtually not reported that at least in our country. What's going on Congo now from the little that I know about it is that true. Holocaust and tremendously complicated the world. I don't know 2000 malicious that are fighting. And of course they're the prices is very rich mineral deposits. That the west once. The west and the wealthy countries of the world one. But I don't know the answers I really don't. I do think that these. Ethnic differences now and I think these are things that -- their real enough but they are mobilized by people who have a vested interest. In and violence or. Were vying for power and triplets and principal."

" aggression we haven't -- is China in Africa. Big story on today and every day."

" And that. But again I'm on an expert on this I do I do know that the -- I was told anyway at the roads in wonder which are very good -- built originally by the Chinese also in Burundi during the Cold War. Those who've been exit roads -- I think."

" According to the Chinese -- they'll have -- read your book I have no idea. Within a I think can imagine conspiring with -- his model of healthcare development or is that just another version of they -- of originating the the European colonialism."

" I don't know I think they. I think -- technical and well. I mean my impression of course it's all derived from reporting here in this that I that I get the -- here in the states it's. As my impression is that brilliant students minerals and oil as we are tipped. They seem to be a little more. Honest but it does seem to care much less about the kinds of governments that supported. Then then we supposedly do although we have a very -- record. The."

" That's Christian. How do you explain to educator beside the secretary of fantastic writer with a wonderful cart record of important barks. The best selling take off of this very challenging. Difficult. Idea in. In this new and strengthen remains instantly. Post in the top of the best so list and seems to have legs."

" Well and no I think it's."

" Well I was struck when I first heard this story. By you know it's trauma. And by that by the central character is actually term and I think. I think we're wired for stories we human beings in this is the story it's one way we organize the chaos of the world. I try to think I think about okay what's this book about well of course it's about Warrenton -- course it's about. The kindness of strangers is about courage and endurance it's about. On the twelve minutes from memory but we know the truth we know the basic truths about all those things right I mean born genocide are deplorable and and charity happens and you know and -- there is such a thing is human resilience and excellent but what I wanted to do and and I guess some people think I have. Who -- To not to -- to experience those things modest truism split that. Experienced them again as we do in our lives through dale you know I mean I think that's what good writing does it make the world knew again and I'm. I cannot hold on a -- Begin to hold myself up as an expert and in how to fix these problems I I find what he his one partial little solution. Very moving and it's certainly been useful to. 20000 different individuals who were getting any medical care. "

" Terry go fighting your your modesty in -- imposed to keep it keep it narrow and local and -- I keep wanting to draw out. What's working here this is a man who personally went back -- he does not compare his suffering to anybody else's. He has dealt somehow. -- is terrific memory and kept moving. He's brought American know -- American machinery American friends. To the project but not weapons not. I mean in aid workers deserve all these other sorts of things. My thought would be simply that in a moment after. The misadventures in Iraq and elsewhere. We're all looking for ways for this incredibly powerful. Culture and country and well ours too to relate to suffering and and whole goal here is they Rhode. Doing. A miracle one day at a time. And I wanna."

" Do want to go to general us from the -- chorus Fella that's for sure. And I mean I can give you some general I think general troops are already are unless you're running the the fact is that. That the festival to have a Burundian. As you know beating this. Effort in -- seems to be really important and I mean I think that's a lesson that partners in health and a sense learn to mean what that was Paul Farmer made himself into. Does he would put of that total -- pathologist and hated me. He got to speak the language in you and when I say speak a language you gotta you gotta really -- like you got to understand connotation insolent. -- as it regards international health thinks that the effective projects are the ones. That while they have big goals and and and while they wanted to spread and so on and so -- start with the individual patient. And you let individual patient teach you how to treat. His her family and let that found a -- and treat the village in the village how to treat you know a province in the province how to treat the nation it. I do think it has to come at least some of -- that you can be working from both fans that you can't you cannot forget that essential. Part which is the local always the local and it's what we hope it. So let you know applaud projects like -- is I know and also applaud projects like bills which are eager. To cooperate with and and share credit though or even to it you know. To -- credit with other people who who are in earnest in don't have other areas of expertise I can see that happening you know and and in and burn unit that's sort of my -- which is that it and and also the cheap if you do this so effectively. It ought to be a beacon for the rest of the country and these. Indians are plenty smart -- incredibly industrious people and I can't help but think that. That when they see this shining and the city on -- On. The comment saying we'd like that too. And you know in if and if there is if if there are people around ready to say okay great but skeptical. I mean it's caused by in my -- I don't -- something glossy and you know and now that the odds rose against these kinds of things but. -- Helen mine or -- we hatred declared despair on behalf of you know eight million amber Indians were so much worse off than we. I I think to pass you have to have hope for this and I'm grateful. Frankly for the existence of people -- and the earlier all. You know I mean so many of the forces in the world that we're from here its fifty day -- Tending toward chaos and you know. Seems."

" I'm not just Clinton here. It's pretty simple minded idea."

" And and say yeah we're glad you're than men. And we love this barked the strength in what remains of journey of remembrance and forgiveness. Of dale branches thanks be to god. Building health clinic and shattered. Put recovering Burundi has get a thank you so much for this conversation thank you Chris it's nice to talk with great pleasure."

" Paul McCarthy edited this conversation with Tracy -- whose book about dale. The journey of remembrance and forgiveness is titled strength and what remains. Are brown university and her husband -- parent and chemicals and helped reduce the power and the podcast -- in listeners -- starting with the idea of effective aren't -- That particular she's does that debt that is -- to these countries and leave a comment if you will that are website. Radioopensource.org. And Christopher -- Thank you for being part of the conversation."