Title: Here and Now for Friday, October 23, 2009

" now is a production of WBUR Boston in association with the BBC world service and PRI."

" I'm running yelling it's here and now and the report card on the government's 700 billion dollar bailout program is in. And if the government was an eighth grader it would be in trouble special inspector general -- Borowski says that TARP for the Troubled Asset Relief Program. Has damaged the government's credibility done little to change risky behavior on Wall Street. And taxpayers probably won't get all the money back Brodsky spoke on the CBS early show."

" I think it's too early to know what the precise numbers are but I think it's unrealistic to expect that we're gonna get all that money back."

" Well bill -- he also did say that the huge bailout program did bring the financial system back from the brink of collapse. Steve guy and his Washington editor for Bloomberg News Steve. Pulling us back from the brink of collapse that's good right."

" And that is good and that's one of the Thai election of -- Barack -- report today but he does point out. But while while we are back from the brink greater risk of foreclosure continues to -- too many Americans unemployment is at record levels. Stress on commercial real -- is continuing to threaten banks so there's a long road still has."

" Let's remind ourselves the TARP program was originally supposed to buy up toxic bank assets. But ended up also bailing out the auto industry and hundreds of banks that have been required to say what they've done in the money. As well as helping a supposedly helping troubled mortgage holders so. Gay and speaking -- you just said do we know if tart increased lending to small businesses or. Reduced. The risk of foreclosures with those troubled --"

" It is hard to say from Borowski reported -- that in fact it happened a number of the bank because they report their second and third in subsequent quarterly earnings. Art making comments related to how much money is going into the -- into the market in terms of lending helping to increase their lending. They've modified the mortgages. For people whose homes they're financing. But this report and directly. Correlating TARP money -- that it increases in lending is very difficult and Borowski says. It's because the treasury did not require TARP recipient. Document how that money was being used."

" Well The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the attention -- might also not have really. Paid attention I think is is the interpretation. When 960 million dollars in retention payments were made to AIG executives at. Reportedly. He says this is a failure."

" That has been -- recurring issue in Washington this year the money that AIG American International Group. Paid to a group of about traders group of employees and their financial products department. A critical of derivatives that can put the cup. Which adjacent by the way were contractually. Agreed upon before the received a government bailout."

" Let's go to the incomplete portion of the report card new Borowski outlines monies that he's not sure taxpayers are going to get back. Seven. AIG. Fifty billion dollars went to modifying these unaffordable home mortgages that will yield no direct return."

" His words exactly but it's very difficult to try to two draw but circle their cut and complete circle with the money that that -- 700 of billion dollars -- went from the TARP program. It is I think -- important also note that just over half."

" Of the 700 billion has actually been committed. Some of it's about seventy billion has been repaid. So some of the money is coming back into the government took the dividend."

" That banks and other recipients have been paying."

" Have been a fraction of that total."

" Well and then said. The whole idea of perception of Brodsky told USA today the one of the worst outcomes of the TARP program is the popular belief that money went into a black hole. And that there was a transfer of wealth from taxpayers to Wall Street. It has a response center in what's the sense of what Washington has to do to overcome that."

" Transparency transparency transparency yeah beat the word in Washington from all the regulators -- to well let the public see everything that's going on. The Securities and Exchange Commission -- talking about transparency but Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. is talking about transparency. And what Daniel Borowski says his lack of transparency of the monies went from the government to these banks. And other recipients there was nothing that gave the public assurance that their tax money was being put to the purpose for which it was in. And that's the black police talked about we don't know where the money is sending up it creates the impression that this is a bailout for Wall Street to Wall Street to -- benefit. It has fueled the anger to the cynicism and distrust which is the way Borowski destructive in its report."

" Just a few seconds here TARP expires in December do you think treasury will extend --"

" There is some call on our capital. -- to extended and more directly use the money for mortgage relief type project."

" Steve -- in Washington editor for Bloomberg News thanks so much. Well one thing that Wall Street might do in response to this report is slowdown. The slow food movement that's the opposite of fast food usually food grown closer to home has a huge following. A moving from European protests against McDonald's to demand for locally grown veggies according markets here in the US. And now former venture capitalist would -- wants to apply the same principles of slow food to investing. With a movement he's calling slow money that would encourage people to invest in local farms and local businesses so they can see where their money is going in literally sometimes see. It growing. Even though it might grow at a slower speed than say the dizzying velocity of Wall Street which we just heard. Was too fast -- in financial analyst to keep up with. Woody is well known in socially responsible investment circles his new project is a non governmental organization called -- money he joins us in the studio -- Started off would slow money."

" What's going on -- Wall Street news. By some measures out of control and I think a lot of people around the country are very anxious for some kind of an alternative and what makes more sense in putting money to work on a local food system -- just as you said you see where the money goes. It's not all about maximizing your return it's about optimizing for a bunch of factors."

" You'll think in a you point out 52 million dollar bonuses for the CEO of Goldman Sachs bonuses akin to people on Wall Street even before the actual result of their work is even known how fast is that -- mind -- you think arbitrage as you can sell things before you buy them fit so it's that's about a fast -- But I wanna quickly putting up your thinking isn't a dismissal of capitalism it's you -- it's a sort of like a natural continuation."

" We're not against entrepreneurship and against capital markets were not even against quote growth unquote. Which just against let's say unfettered forms of these things that it's not all or nothing it's possible to have a good small business. That is not all about maximizing growth and it's possible have a good investment asylum maximizing profit."

" Well and big business has a Wall Street a socially responsible investors have funds that try to backed businesses that might be seeing green or sustainable but it still. Big business. And you point out small business local business has nothing to what do you propose."

" Within a decade they're -- groups of investors in communities all around the United States collaborating with the spirit of community supported -- just voluntary collaboration to invest -- right -- C -- say that -- community supported agriculture people -- and -- that banks of Prodi -- harvest right -- the beautiful thing about it is how simple it is but we shouldn't discount its power because of its simplicity this is people. Connected directly to producers. Without any intermediaries. And this is really what's happened to our society and Wall Street and else so many layers of intermediaries that no one understands anything anymore. This is not about throwing Wall Street out about balancing Wall Street a tiny depth meaning we need. Tiny fractions of money moving in directional making huge impact for local food systems. Well in your new Ngo is called slumming is he said it's capitalized with seed capital from 35 people in two foundations. I'm delighted to say it's now hundreds of people also okay so. We've got about a 125 founding members who are people put in between 2050000. Dollars which is really great and we've got a whole bunch of people coming in at lower levels now. And our goal is to do something that I'm not sure is ever really been dumbest way. We -- grow a very large grassroots membership organization. And use the capital comes in from the members to invest in local food system so it's a very -- hybrid grass roots. Philanthropy investing mix which is very unusual we need here is. A lot of money relatively quickly to do something that has been done before which is a massive infusion of capital to support small organic farms local processing. Slow food restaurants if you wanna use that terminology."

" Well and he had his friend recently and I think you know and he makes soy products in Vermont and he says what I need is slow money fast these are companies that are. Really trying to grow and they need this money quickly but tell us about the slow aspect of the investment what does that mean."

" If you were putting money into let's say smokestacks in China we just use let's say a slight exaggeration but only -- on. Your money made might grow 10% a year the historic generate growth in the stock market if you're putting your money to work in a small business and Vermont. And you have the same return expectations are going to be very frustrated you're gonna frustrate in the company. And by the way if you look at the returns the stock market other than open the so called last quarter this balance that we're in right now. But if you look at it -- over the last couple years you see that it's very unclear what the future of the stock market is really going to be and I think any smart investor would say that a significant amount of uncertainty has been opened up so. It's okay in my opinion to accept a lower rate of return for things that you understand much more. Well well how -- you -- The Wall Street Journal that people can expect anywhere from three to 6% on their investment is that which you didn't yeah oh yeah that's really funny I don't know exactly where she got that number but it's okay with me the answers we don't know exactly what the returns -- gonna be for -- hold that if you call slow money in new kind of an asset class. But let's say low positive rates of return. Single digits and in all likelihood it doesn't mean no one would ever make more money than not to think of -- very concretely room if you put money into a farm down the street. And you found out that that farmer was gonna go to business that we didn't get a 100000 dollar infusion of capital of ten community members got together and he's put in 10000 dollars. And ten years later got your money back and you've got to -- 2% per year return on that money ten years later that a good investment -- better investment if you're in that community would say that was a good investment because it's not just about the money it's about some other values you're gonna."

" talk about that because he talked about I -- and ERR I know what you're talking about it for a wild well internal rate of return I mean that's what happens within the company the money they make. The external. Rate of return the week that the company leaves behind it."

" The only reason we're having this discussion is because we live at the end of fifty years. Of unprecedented. Explosive population growth technological growth so that the idea of doing something slower local seems radical. -- these four people Abraham Lincoln. Again this -- Julius Caesar. And Susan B. Anthony question is what they all have in common. The answer is they all -- only organic food the funny thing that got them -- about is that everything that we're dealing with right now in finance and agriculture and food it's all related. Has all happened in the last fifty to 75 years. The so our standards of measuring our standards of success are you know wildly skewed it it just seems. Crazy. That you would expect you could do something slower as a solution to all of this speed run --"

" Don't you know and an open -- down this road just to have responded to that you know other people say -- more people are -- because. Of these developments in people in you know countries it never -- it would starve to death or eating because of chemicals and fertilizers and if."

" fast fast money traveling around the world again this is not about either or about balance until that point I think a very strong historical argument can be made that. The way we have fed the planet for the last fifty years. Has been essential to the spurt of population growth that's happened right the global population has tripled in the last sixty or seventy years. So it's been essential but it's not sustainable that's the question and it it does work no one is arguing that the -- but long term we're doing at the cost of fertility in the soil and does not sustainable."

" So you -- joke about slow money is being sort of a break on the current economy not replacing it and picking companies it will literally plow. The money that you invest in this new Ngo back into the local earth so the question is have any of some of your investors have they started making money."

" Well we're just starting so there are investors around the country starting to put hundreds of thousands here hundreds of thousands they're not tens of millions or hundreds of millions here and there. So companies like farmers diner in Vermont you know a series of diners to sourced locally and organically and are now two of them in Vermont. There's a company in California -- let's be frank hot dog company grass should be about -- So this quite a few of them they're all very well you're talking about companies that have you know hundreds of thousands to a million or so in sales. The vast majority of them are not trying to become major multinational companies they don't want that outcome and one -- days."

" Normally when -- may want to stay small and local but what happens is those companies really take off week -- knows a thing or two about that I asked if his lonely investors making money you'll. Maybe not a lot now but what do you do know that might change we'll hear. The story that little company that you back called stony hills farms. When we come back in one minute with the -- here now."

" Funding for here and now comes from the math works creators of -- lab and simulate technical computing software. Dedicated to accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science worldwide on the web at math works dot com."

" Welcome back to our conversation with -- cash -- venture capitalist who's not founded the slow money alliance. A group that's trying to create a new Wall Street investing in small local businesses with the eighty smaller returns than Wall Street but more positive impacts on communities. We before the break we were talking about some small companies you've invested in under the slow money umbrella east they wanna stay small and local. But decades ago when you were simply a socially responsible investors. -- arrested in a kid named Gary -- berg who founded a little yoga company called stony field farms. I took awhile but his company exploded the French conglomerate -- bonnet. -- still runs stony field gets milk from cows in New Hampshire. But now not all of his earnings stay local he's also selling to Wal-Mart to try to get to go green his critics say. Wal-Mart is the biggest store are the fastest aren't. Now good for you in that you were patient with Gary you didn't demand a big return early on. But you say that the Wall Street Montana that the market demand growth isn't true and doesn't stony Phil show it you just to ultimate."

" Well this is one of the real -- is one of the real parts of the matter we're talking about balance. So we're not against stony field because of 400 million dollar division of -- and now. And in fact -- right I and others were lucky enough to invest in my company early on -- is a fantastic entrepreneur and it's a great company. And I would say anybody who doesn't think having organic yogurt on Wal-Mart shelves is important is not paying attention is very important what he's doing really important. And I'm not against stony field medalist on the field. And I'm also for a company called but it works farm. Which is a one million dollar yogurt company in northern Vermont during the same timeframe that Gehry built stony field Jack and and laser -- and one million dollar yogurt company off one farm their farm. 325 acres fifty or sixty cows to grow most of their own feed it's kind of iconic I would say as a sustainable. Food -- beautiful product. And what we need is hundreds of but there was -- say well why did this one companies don't feel become 400 million dollar company and Sutherland during the same time only stuck to being a one million the answer is who the hell knows. Luck of the draw entrepreneurship. Being in the right place at the right time the passion of a bit of -- given talents of a given individual whatever that is but we don't have to figure all that out. I think what we need to do -- support. Hundreds of small food and reprisal around the United States except the fact that some of them are gonna rise up and become big multinational companies -- just the nature of free markets we don't wanna try to. Do one size fits all. But I think what we need right now is diversity."

" So how do you get more of these people to invest luckily you as you say you have people already who bar. How do you go from there The Wall Street Journal also. Covered your recent slow money convention in Santa Fe 400 people big success. But Rockefeller air Christopher Lindstrom. Said you know he's committed this is something he passionately wants to do we must invest his entire portfolio in small scale local businesses like farms. But he scared me -- you're putting my financial future in the hands of a goat farmer. Feels like jumping off a cliff. And this is someone who's enthusiastic."

" A couple of the -- that we live in scary times who's not scared about what's going on the planet right now. But everyone has to decide for themselves if you think the best thing you can do with their money is to keep betting on what we've been doing for the last 75 years if you think that's. The safest most secure route and keep putting all your money into all the usual products I would argue. Against that but if you're concerned that we're going off a cliff economically culturally which is how I feel. You know I can't have peace in my life of my money is zooming around the planet invested in smokestacks in China that's where most of harmonious that's -- we're not having -- depression right now. It's not sustainable I know it is sustainable and I don't know what the full alternative is not exactly but I know way to start this is putting -- money to work and small things and understand."

" Well since the farmers themselves. Are also little leery of saying things like. I'm not sure I want the guy down the street to be. My investor and he's gonna wanna come have a touring get them free cheese and then it might be a little too close for comfort -- some of these small local businesses."

" Play it again not the perfect as the enemy of the good I think that's a good insight. I think the opposite is even more anti animal that is no local investors investing in nothing locally. Robert sometimes I think about how in the sixties and seventies we all discovered that there was no such place as a way remember when the environments and we throw something away wears away. And one day just popped in my head to investors as most of places here. In other words were not talked to invest anything where we live it's all markets and sectors and securities and rates of return has nothing to do with where we live so how can we expect to save the places where we live a full government is invested in some places don't exist again and welcome back to balance."

" We -- you mentioned cynical the main street exchange so the first stock exchange dedicated to. -- a local restorative economy investing in products and services to serve you know the local market how to network and who weren't regulated."

" Perhaps known will be shocked -- I have no idea really. Dreaming up a whole new stock exchange is not something one does by oneself when you think apps directly it's one thing -- think about here's a company Patagonia of the season as an example. I happen to be weren't having an -- right now. Patagonia I don't know what the sales or may be 400 million dollars private company. Then a tremendous leader in environmental sourcing I think it was the first company may be in the world clothing companies have cleaners states to social let's cut organically etc. senators are. Where is Patagonian ago women function -- the founder believes he still owns I think 95% of the stock of the company -- what's gonna happen company and answered nobody knows. Why should there be a place without companies go public but -- that the investors who -- investing all share the values shall happen if you -- in exchange for hundreds of those kind of companies and the answer is I'm not sure but I think it's feasible and actually believe it's gonna happen. So one of the beautiful things that's come out of this is a strategy for. Linking together tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands some people even think millions sounds a little crazy of Americans. To put money to work and local food systems using a large number of small donations. Let's be clear that's a membership you're -- talking -- investment -- not money that they are investing a little -- get a -- practice is separate from and that's separate and the reason we're looking at that now is because we've been talking around the country in -- winter as we wanna get going wanna do this right now how do we do it right now and the answer is. If you try to set up a fund or an exchange that is extremely complicated you know all kinds of securities laws. If people wanna send -- 25 dollars tomorrow we can aggregate that we could start investing that money tomorrow and hundreds of these little companies."

" That's really tests he's author of increase into the nature of slow money investing as -- farms food and fertility. Matter. Would you will put information on our website --"

" get involved thanks so much thanks -- And then -- infertility had to do with investing in farmers that make the sought out more fertile and fascinating. We'll look ahead tomorrow I'm here now as the space shuttle program is retired now so way to the final report from a commission on future. Humans based travel. That's tomorrow."

" Hand. Support for here and now comes from the listeners of WBUR Boston where the program is produced. Hinckley Allen and Snyder were partners have been giving clients practical legal advice for over a hundred years throughout New England. And now including Connecticut online it has -- dot com. And the Institute of Contemporary Art on Boston's waterfront presenting the work of a diverse range of contemporary artists performers and war. Ice CA Boston dot lord."

" Head of the international atomic energy agency says Iran has agreed to a draft of the deal. That could tamp down concern about Iran developing nuclear weapons. Under the agreement a win would send its uranium to Russia and France. Those countries would in region as a low level grade necessary for nuclear power or medical facilities but not -- Anne of -- for weapons use. And then send it back to Iran. John minus the BBC's to run correspondent in London now because he's expelled from Iran after the election protest this past summer. So John what's your take on this proposed deal."

" And where it's a very neat little deal because. Every side -- coming out of this you're wrong get that fuel it needs for this for such reduction Tehran. Titles seems to be fending off pressure when you sanctions still under the steel. Continues to enrich uranium on the other side the west at least get some degree of reassurance. A good chunk of the uranium that Iran has already in rich gets -- the country. Converts into use that makes it very difficult time in its nuclear bombs so the west has a little buys a bit of time with -- deal."

" Well we just a quick question this may expose our lack of science knowledge. But we wondered if Tehran does approve the deal and sends its uranium to Russia and and then on to France. To enrich it to the level that we spoke of but not to weapons grade is still concerned that they might secretly. In -- further when it returns to Iraq and it was just revealed that they had that. Then secret enrichment plant might they have another might they then enrich the uranium further."

" Can't you do that basically under this process the 3.5. Percent and -- and you would go to nineteen point 5% still well under. What you need for ball which sported a 90%. And it will be turned into fuel roads and formed more difficult then to. Take 21 side and then thuggery and rich but also it is easier to keep an on field Rawls. Rather than enriched uranium in its current form which is in the big tank. It's easy to track and it's harder to convert to make a bomb itself and not the end of the mattress follows the west is concerned. The United States would still like to see much tighter controls or -- really the uranium enrichment program and a lot of other Schultz is as well well --"

" It could be claimed responsibility is known mr. and Della army if guide you you're you're well aware of who they are who are day."

" Will this is a group down on the far side these -- author on system but it just on its a very troubled province. It's mostly believe choose an ethnic minority in Iran and mr. Sunni Muslims from the Shi -- Muslims. Who controlled central government in wrong and they basically fighting for the rights of the Dellucci minority talent. And they've been running the sporadic but nevertheless long running campaign that was a bomb attack on a mosque back in May in which I think 25 people killed. Sometimes to be difficult to separated out from the other violence on that particularly. Related to the drugs trade. If you look down on democracy and the convergence of Afghanistan Pakistan and Iran. And this is a main route for smuggling enormous quantities all of drugs out of Afghanistan headed towards Western Europe and -- to smuggle vital people and about pockets this moment by heavily armed convoys. Really heavily armed -- almost like paramilitary. Gangs and so that'll be asleep overlaps a bit and and one suspect possibly funds this group -- and out of the army go."

" Who also would think they have their own interest is there any evidence of -- claim that Pakistan the US or Britain. Contributed to that attack on on the revolutionary guard."

" You may remember President Bush opened allocated. A money -- destabilizing hoping opposition. Any wrong and had been on -- stories surface in the in the media that that the maybe some of -- money is push towards his group the United States and Britain would strongly denied this. As for Pakistani involvement what Pakistan has its own problems in the pot globe they also have a very long running insurgency. Pakistan is not in their own problems controlling the -- two people -- and helping them to destabilize. The wrong one other possibility is actually that India may be helping. The blue jays possibly because descent and a strategic interest in causing problems too practiced on the for the amount for -- wrong and he seized."

" On line from London John thanks so much my pleasure. But the latest note and Iran has made some arrests in Sunday's attack on its revolutionary guard veterans police chief says. He expects Pakistan to -- the main suspects. And Pakistan's Interior Minister says his country is cooperating in Iran. And has handed over dozens of suspected militants. In recent months including the brother of John do as the leader."

" Read and weep when disaster. Unfortunately it's grew to shareholders. A sampling of email sent out by top officials at Bank of America and Merrill Lynch. Talking about large losses at Merrill Lynch even has Merrill Lynch was being bought out by Bank of America for fifty billion dollars. Now congress wants to know what did Bank of America know about those losses and went -- they know it and why didn't they tell stockholders. Yesterday Bank of America denied that it had withheld any meaningful information from its investors but. Congress is investigating and also wants to know. Why executives at Merrill got billions of dollars in bonuses just as the deal was being closed in January when the bank's new. That the losses were so big near -- business correspondent Eric dash joins us -- it's very complicated. The house oversight and government reform committee is looking into thousands of documents. So let's start with some context this is September 2008. Lehman Brothers collapsing. Kenneth Lewis was head of Bank of America. Why was he acquiring Merrill Lynch."

" Because Merrill understood that it could be next Lehman Brothers as you said. It was on the verge of collapse and Ken Lewis knew and John Thain at Merrill Lynch deal that they were that next in line fire and that it could be Morgan Stanley. -- Goldman Sachs and he needed to do something and they needed to do it fast. And Ken Lewis had always wanted to ask the biggest brokerage house had to sort of it's -- big businesses Bank of America had been the biggest credit card player the biggest retail banking. Franchised the biggest commercial lender the biggest private bank. And now yet but thundering herd of Merrill Lynch and sites. -- so agreed to give the deal -- dated at a very big premium price."

" Will the deal was for Bank of America to -- have Merrill Lynch for fifty billion dollars in stock it was set for December vote for shareholders. December 5. And then deal I was too close on January 1 but thank American executives and board members like Chad Gifford told Ken Lewis it was a bad idea why."

" Well I think they were very nervous about. And Merrill Lynch which itself was troubled at that time they didn't know the depth of its boxes he didn't really have a good handle on the business and in fact they only had. You know 48 hour window to do. The due diligence normally this process in a normal acquisition could take weeks and so people were concerned. Then there were all these cultural issues could you merged weak consumer bank which which -- investment banks. And could you get an understanding of just how bad the housing market could be."

" Well and then in December writer on the -- shareholder vote. Analysts said Bank of America Merrill Lynch start seeing the losses that Merrill Lynch really has and that's where. These newly released emails surfaced people saying things like read in weep when disaster. After the deal closed Gifford and others in January. We're told by Lewis in a conference call. How big these losses were far bigger than they knew that's when Chad Gifford wrote an email saying. The shareholders are screwed. So what does this information tell us."

" It that many of these emails essentially tell us what we are ready -- that you know starting in the ball. There were problems with the Bank of America Merrill merger but don't bosses were growing that decision growing turning into a disaster and that people were concerned. That said it's not often that you have just you know inside access to be private thoughts of board members I think it's intrastate and Matt Light. "

" But doesn't tell us dead officials at Bank of America. Knew something that they didn't tells stockholders. When they approved a deal on December 5."

" Well I think it tells you that they were to disarm but I think he can beat question. And is. You know just how bad did the -- need to get before they could tell wars and I think that's one of these matters to. Before -- congressional investigators to federal investigators and state investigators."

" Here's another question that's been floating around. There's been this debate. As to whether or not government officials put inappropriate pressure on Bank of America to make this deal. Then Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke. Had apparently signed off on it and Bank of America officials say that they we're told that incoming Obama officials. Lawrence Summers and Tim Geithner would also approve of the deal. But does anything that's newly surfaced tell us whether or not they put undue pressure on Ken Lewis who you just said. Some like he really -- the deal despite some of his own people telling in the slowdown."

" You know I'm not sure that it actually does that in fact there may be a suggestion that some of the."

" The emails that have been released that Bank of America was actually using its approach to the government to get leverage to allow it to back out."

" Wolf this is another question that congress is considering whether Bank of America -- Kenneth Lewis. Went to government officials in December after the shareholders vote but before the deal actually seals on January 1. And told the government officials about these huge losses and threatened to. Back out of the deal to save Merrill Lynch and less it's more bail out money in and in other words. Uses that threat as leverage to get more bail out money and again this is when he is not told shareholders his concern. About the Merrill Lynch losses so what are the questions there."

" Great organic hinges on this question of can -- reality just how big are colossus in due -- this Bank of America need. -- tell shareholders so as of December -- have. Bank of America officials say we don't need to -- shareholders about these losses. Before the shareholder. Vote because they want to complete the deal but then just a week or two later. You know the losses are growing bigger and they now say. Would be placed of their legal advisers. Well maybe we should tell the government. Maybe they're we can do use this as a legal -- to renegotiate the price of the deal. The big government doesn't want Bank of America to renegotiate the deal because they're afraid of sort of at the threat to the market stability as you have to remember that the markets -- extremely jittery attacked. It's a Bank of America man approaches. Hank Paulson says look. We believe that we can renegotiate this deal but. You could also provide some bailout money. And allow us to complete what's really interesting though is just that they -- before. Bank of America's own legal advisers called the bank that -- There's only a slim possibility that you could -- exercised this legal out so this is really high stakes negotiating strategy that -- Lewis was."

" In other words I can -- the government to demand more money even though his lawyers had told them that. Legally it was a slim possibility he'd get it didn't get."

" So he did get to bail out when the terms of the second bailout -- They were more Boris conditions that many of the board members got. Hence we have Chad -- one of the Bank of America board members say well this is terrible it's really unfortunate. And it screws to shareholders. In a burst of frustration when you -- the details of the deal."

" Chad Gifford will be on testifying before congress. Erik we've laid the table for the hearings that are coming up but we ethical component."

" Look I think that we will have more hearings last word documents. But I'm not quite sure if we'll have more understanding but hopefully will be able to tease that out and -- pages of the aircraft."

" Nick Jones business correspondent Eric dash thanks Italy's. Listen it was complicated. If you ever want to listen to a story again don't forget you discuss it here now dot org and click in the archives and listen to it with a pen and pad. Here in Canada our second minute here and now."

" Support for here and now comes in part from the Rockefeller Foundation and its campaign for American workers. More at rock found dot org. Welcome back."

" You know composer have to -- once disguised himself in women's clothing and set up to kill the woman he loved. The Philip Glass was a taxi driver."

" Then smaller and --"

" Look at London's new book secret. Lives of weak -- what teachers never told you about the world news. Also tells us that John Cage was obsessed with fungus. Yeah."

" And -- over his church's organ pipes and sold them for scrap. Like The National Enquirer for the classical sense and listen to and he joins us more welcome thank you so much for having me let's talk with. A bang. Tchaikovsky. Many people may not know that he was. Gay in nineteenth century Russia this is a time -- those very dangerous. It was very dangerous it not only would have ruined his career he probably would have ended up in prison and he worked does not key to anywhere bizarre he received message is commissions through the government or through that state ministry in the arts so it was a very serious thing in and not simply that he can at all repeal and with a great pains. Two height so much so that he got me right. But you have uncovered some references to the fact that he did have a -- life. That appears to be the case that the references are very obscure and fleeting they're seen to be. And gay Moscow subculture that it was theories sub sub sub culture -- what does this tell us about his music. It tells us how hard he had to work. To achieve such a light and floating it acts. What does it tell us about his death. For years the story was that he died of cholera. From drinking and and -- glass of water. But the stories your -- conflict scene and then as late as 1979. A story came out that he had in fact killed himself. Under pressure to use stopped his homosexuality from being revealed."

" So as an insulin into tech kind of skis life let's move from that to Franz Liszt who. Wouldn't tour. And was followed by a throng of --"

" Was he really the first Rothstein. I think he really was he was incredibly good looking he seem to have. This rock star charisma. On stage he was very dramatic he would play the piano when he meets die and he would. Throw his hair back he had long hair and he would toss it around in an apparently they were just just fainting in the -- And women would bomb Iran didn't try to clip his hair and stimulus handkerchiefs. And apparently throw themselves at him at every opportunity and he seemed to have no problem catching them. US -- promiscuous he fathered children out of wedlock but then seemed to take a turn. He ended very unexpected turn surprised everyone when he became the east. We hear this personal life -- music in your mind. What the drama lists music is scary dramatic its -- Almost over -- sometimes I think he --"

" So off that."

" We'll speaking of drama. You -- of Robert human. That he was haunted by demons and how so. Theory sad story it seems that when he was -- hands he caught syphilis syphilis if you don't treated with antibiotics. It can only dormant in your body for many many years and then manifested itself. Decades later as insanity. And sell after. Happily nearing the girl of his dreams clash came on and having several children. He suddenly he started hearing angelic voices that they in turned into team money -- And it was so troubling that he actually escaped the house and is bathrobes and slippers and attempted to actually succeeded in throwing himself in their in the Rhine river. And this is mental illness. As you said due to the medical illness and how much. Did you find when word classical composers driven crazy by the music itself. Molly was of particular case and it's like there are there are those who were somewhat tormented by their music Beethoven is another example. There are all composers who seem to be eminently sane. You know -- was just a sensible guy who loved his wife and had twenty children to more shock is another example. I was Siemens and -- and love. -- mention. That in 1893 when Americans. Deeply segregated he me the comment that he felt that the future of American music. Was going to be the negro ability and when you think of the blues jazz rock general everything that came. -- Absolutely he loved coming to America and he loved listening to two African American spiritual and actually wrote his own version of a spiritual. For his new world symphony. --"

" It's hot when he made this statement that he African American music would drive and -- in the future. The American sixteen shocked and horrified they want it to draw on the same European sources as they're European colleagues and we're absolutely. Hold by the foot putt that you would turn to these vulnerabilities. But it was remarkably fresh and then."

" Well speaking of shots in her side."

" Just last comment on the -- near Reno and inspired Hitler. As Woody -- since I can't listen to bond ninety theaters to -- and I -- I'm Noah Benton. -- children police negligence."

" I think he would have wanted you to know how to keep you like to present himself -- a man's man. But the fact -- how to think for pink silk. And he would order on -- now English saying it's in two resting Townsend slippers. From parents and put them on his. Secret roomful of pink presents which just you know whatever floats your boat out of the absolutely we're -- just. Instantly."

" one -- other of secret lives of pretty composed of what you teachers never told you about the rule of these things Elizabeth thank you so much for these hearings and -- You're very welcome thanks so much for having me. -- announced production of WBUR Boston in association with the BBC world service and -- I'm not. Tell -- again. Here and."