Title: Here and Now for Wednesday, October 21, 2009

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" And PRI. And running yelling it's here and now and the report card on the government's 700 billion dollar bailout program is in. And if the government was an eighth grader it would be in trouble special inspector general -- Borowski says that TARP for the Troubled Asset Relief Program. Has damaged the government's credibility done little to change risky behavior on Wall Street. And taxpayers probably won't get all the money back Brodsky spoke on the CBS early show. I think it's too early to know what the precise numbers are but I think it's unrealistic to expect that we're gonna get all that money back. Well -- he also did say that the huge bailout program did bring the financial system back from the brink of collapse. Steve guy in his Washington editor for Bloomberg News Steve. -- pulling us back from the brink of collapse that's good right."

" That is good and that's one of the highlights of -- Borowski report today but he does point out. But while while we are back from the brink greater risk of foreclosure continues to effect to many Americans unemployment is at record levels. Stress on commercial real -- is continuing to -- banks so there's a long road still has."

" Let's remind ourselves the TARP program was originally supposed to buy up toxic bank assets. But ended up also bailing out the auto industry and hundreds of banks that have been required to say what they -- of the money. As well as helping a supposedly helping troubled mortgage holders so. Gay and speaking of -- what you just said do we know if tart increased lending to small businesses or. Reduced. The risk of foreclosures with those troubled --"

" It is hard to say from Borowski report today that that in fact it happened a number of the bank because they report their second and third in subsequent quarterly earnings. Art making comments related to how much money is going into the leak into the market in terms of lending how they've increased their learning how they've modified the mortgages. For people whose homes they're financing. But this report and directly. Correlating TARP money -- that it increases and lending is very difficult. And Borowski says it's because the treasury did not require TARP recipients. Document how that money was being used."

" Well The Wall Street Journal is reporting dead and the attrition -- mine also not have really. Paid attention I think is is the interpretation. When 960 million dollars in retention payments were made to AIG executives at a reportedly. He says this is a failure."

" That has been I recurring issue in Washington this year the money that AIG American International Group. Paid to a group of about traders group of employees and their financial products department. That's the department that critical to derivatives that can put the company on the brink of collapse and record the government bella. I think we still have a long way to go before you find out exactly how the money from the government went toward those retention bonuses which -- says by the way. Contractually. Agreed upon before the received a government bailout."

" Let's go to the incomplete portion of the report card new Borowski outlines monies that he's not sure taxpayers are going to get back. Seven. AIG. Fifty billion dollars went to modifying these unaffordable home mortgages it will yield no direct return."

" His words exactly but it's very difficult to try to two draw but circle and a cut in the complete circle with the money that -- was 700 of billion dollars that went from the TARP program. It is I think -- important also know that's just over half. The 700 billion has actually been committed. Some of -- about seventy billion has been repaid. So some of the money is coming back into the government but the dividend. That banks and other recipients have been paying. Have been a fraction of that total."

" Well and then you said the whole idea of perception of Brodsky told USA today. The one of the worst outcomes of the TARP program is the popular belief that money went into a black hole. And that there was a transfer of wealth from taxpayers to Wall Street. It has a response -- what's the sense of what Washington has to do to overcome that."

" Transparency transparency transparency -- the word in Washington from all the regulators ballots to elect the public see everything that's going. The Securities and Exchange Commission is talking about transparency. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. is talking about transparency. And what Daniel Borowski says his lack of transparency of the monies went from the government to these banks. And other recipients there was nothing that gave the public assurance that their tax money was being put to the purpose for which it was intended. That's the black hole he's talking about we don't know where the money is sending up -- create the impression that this is a bailout for Wall Street to Wall Street that's benefiting. Has fueled the anger to the cynicism and distrust which is the way Borowski destructive in its report."

" Just a few seconds here TARP expires in December do you think treasury will extend --"

" There is some call on not Capitol Hill to extended and more directly use the money for mortgage relief type project."

" Steve -- in Washington editor for Bloomberg News thanks so much. Well one thing that Wall Street might do in response to this report is slowdown. The slow food movement that's the opposite of fast food usually food grown closer to home has a huge following. A moving from European protests against McDonald's to demand for locally grown veggies according markets here in the US. And now former venture capitalist would -- wants to apply the same principles of slow food to investing. With a movement he's calling slow money. That would encourage people to invest in local farms and local businesses so they can see where their money is going in literally sometimes see. It growing. Even though it might grow at a slower speed than say the dizzying velocity of Wall Street which we just heard. Was too fast -- in financial analyst to keep up with. -- is well known in socially responsible investment circles his new project is -- non governmental organization called slow money he joins us in the studio -- Started off would slow money."

" What's going on -- Wall Street news. By some measures out of control and I think a lot of people around the country are very anxious for some kind of an alternative and what makes more sense in putting money to work on a local food system Houston just as you said you see where the money goes. It's not all about maximizing your return it's about optimizing for a bunch of factors."

" You'll think in a you point out 52 million dollar bonuses for the CEO of Goldman Sachs bonuses akin to people on Wall Street even before the actual result of their work is even known how fast is that -- on what you think arbitrage as you can sell things before you buy them -- so it's that's about a faster better and assessing get. But I wanna quickly putting up your thinking isn't a dismissal of capitalism it's you -- it's a sort of like a natural continuation."

" We're not against entrepreneurship and against capital markets were not even against quote growth unquote. Which just against let's say unfettered forms of these things that it's not all or nothing it's possible to have a good small business. That is not all about maximizing growth and it's possible have a good investment that's -- up maximizing profit."

" Well and big business has a Wall Street a socially responsible investors have funds that try to back businesses that might be seeing green or sustainable but it still. Big business. And you point out small business local business has nothing to what do you propose."

" Within a decade they're gonna -- groups of investors in communities all around the United States collaborating with the spirit of community sport that -- CSF remaining just voluntary collaboration to invest locally right -- say that -- community supported agriculture people why did you see this in an -- that banks of Prodi says harvest right -- the beautiful thing about is how simple it is but we shouldn't discount its power because of its simplicity this is people. Connected directly to producers. Without any intermediaries and this is really what's happened to our society and Wall Street and else so many layers of intermediaries that no one understands anything anymore. This is not about throwing Wall Street out about balancing Wall Street a tiny bit meaning we need. Tiny fractions of money moving in directional making huge impact for local food systems. Well in your new Ngo is called slumming is he said it's capitalized with seed capital from 35 people in two foundations. I'm delighted to say it's now hundreds of people -- so. We've got about a 125 founding members who are people put in between 2050000. Dollars which is really great and we've got a whole bunch of people coming in at lower levels now. And our goal is to do something that I'm not sure is ever really been dumbest way. We wanna grow a very large grassroots membership organization. And use the capital comes in from the members to invest in local food system so it's a very -- hybrid grass roots. Philanthropy investing -- which is very unusual what we need here is. A lot of money relatively quickly to do something that has been done before which is a massive infusion of capital to support small organic farms local processing. Slow food restaurants if you wanna use that terminology."

" Well and he had his friend recently and I think you know and he makes soy products in Vermont and he said what I need is slow money fast these are companies that are. Really trying to grow and they need this money quickly but tell us about the slow aspect of the investment what is that."

" And if you were putting money into let's say smokestacks in China we just use let's say a slight exaggeration but only -- on. Your money made might grow 10% a year the historic generate growth in the stock market if you're putting your money to work in a small business and Vermont. And you have the same return expectations are going to be very frustrated they're gonna frustrate in the company. And by the way if you look at the returns the stock market other than open the so called last quarter this balance that we're in right now. But if you look at it -- over the last couple years you see that it's very unclear what the future of the stock market is really going to be and I think any smart investor would say that a significant amount of uncertainty has been opened up so. It's okay in my opinion to accept a lower rate of return for things that you understand much more. Well well how -- you -- The Wall Street Journal that people can expect anywhere from three to 6% on their investment is that which you didn't yeah oh yeah that's really funny I don't know exactly where she got that number but it's okay with maybe answers we don't know exactly what the returns -- gonna be for -- that if you call slow money -- kind of an asset class but let's say low positive rates of return. Single digits and -- all likely -- doesn't mean no one would ever make more money than not to think of a very -- room if you put your money into a farm down the street. And you found out that that farmer was gonna go to business that we didn't get a 100000 dollar infusion of capital of ten community members got together and -- put in 10000 dollars. And ten years later got your money back and you've got to -- 2% per year return on that money ten years later have a good investment or better investment if you -- in that community would say that was a good investment because it's not just about the money it's about some other values you're gonna."

" You talk about that because he talked about I cars and ERR I know what you're talking about -- for wild well internal rate of return I mean that's what happens within the company the money they make. The external. Rate of return the week that the company leaves behind it."

" The only reason we're having this discussion is because we live at the end of fifty years. Of unprecedented. Explosive population growth technological growth so that the idea of doing something slower local seems radical. -- these four people Abraham Lincoln. Again this con. Julius Caesar. And Susan B. Anthony question is what they all have in common. The answer is they all -- only organic food the funny thing that -- makes you think about is that everything that we're dealing with right now in finance and agriculture and food it's all related. Has all happened in the last fifty to 75 years. The so our standards of measuring our standards of success -- you know wildly skewed it just seems. Crazy. That you would expect you could do something slower as a solution to all of this speed run --"

" Don't you know and an open -- down this -- just to have responded to that in other people say yeah but what people are eating because. Of these developments in people in you know countries it never -- it would starve to death or eating because of chemicals and fertilizers and."

" Fast fast fast money traveling around the world again this is not about either or. It's about balance until that point I think a very strong historical argument can be made that. The way we have fed the planet for the last fifty years. Has been essential to the -- of population growth has happened right global population has tripled in the last sixty or seventy years. So it's been essential but it's not sustainable that's the question it it does work no one is arguing to -- the long term we're doing at the cost of fertility in the soil and does not sustainable."

" So you you joke about slow money is being sort of a break on the current economy not replacing it and picking companies it will literally plow. The money that you invest in this new Ngo back into the local earth so the question is have any of some of your investors have they started making money."

" Well we're just starting so there are investors around the country starting to put hundreds of thousands here hundreds of thousands they're not tens of millions or hundreds of millions here and there. So companies like farmers diner in Vermont you know a series of diners to sourced locally and organically and are now two of them in Vermont. There's a company in California called let's be frank hot dog company grass should be about -- So this quite a few of them they're all personally talking about companies that have you know hundreds of thousands to a million or so and sales. The vast majority of them are not trying to become major multinational companies they don't want that outcome and one -- days."

" Normally -- early may want to stay small and local but what happens -- those companies really take off week -- knows a thing or two about that I asked if his -- many investors are making money you'll. Maybe not a lot now but what do you do know that might change we'll hear. The story that little company that you back called stony hills farms. When we come back in one minute would be -- here now."

" And funding for here and now comes from the math works creators of -- lab and simulate technical computing software. Dedicated to accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science worldwide on the web at math works dot com."

" Welcome back to our conversation with -- cash -- venture capitalist who's not founded the slow money alliance. A group that's trying to create a new Wall Street investing in small local businesses with the eighty smaller returns than Wall Street but more positive impacts on communities. -- before the break we were talking about some small companies you invested in under the slow money umbrella east they wanna stay small and local. But decades ago when you were simply a socially responsible investors. You arrested in a kid named Gary -- berg who founded a little yoga company called stony field farms. I took awhile but his company exploded the French conglomerate -- bonnet. -- still runs stony field gets milk from cows in New Hampshire. But now not all of his earnings stay local he's also selling to Wal-Mart to try to get to go green his critics say. Wal-Mart is the biggest store are the fastest aren't. -- good for you in that you were patient is scary you didn't demand a big return her Leon. But you say that the Wall Street Montana that the market demand growth isn't true and doesn't stony Phil show it you just to ultimate."

" Well this is one of the real -- is one of the real parts of the matter we're talking about balance. So we're not against stony field because of 400 million dollar division of -- and now. And in fact the right I and others were lucky enough to invest in my company early on -- is a fantastic entrepreneur and it's a great company. And I would say anybody who doesn't think having organic yogurt on Wal-Mart shelves is important is not paying attention is very important what he's doing really important. And I'm not against stony field medalist on the field. And I'm also for a company called but it works farm. Which is a one million dollar yogurt company in northern Vermont during the same time -- that Gehry built stony field Jack and handlers -- build -- one million dollar yogurt company off one farm their farm. 325 acres fifty or sixty cows to grow most of their own feed it's kind of iconic I would say as a sustainable. Food -- beautiful product. And what we need is hundreds of but there was farms and and you say well why did this one companies don't feel become 400 million dollar company Sutherland during the same time only stuck to -- one million the answer is who the hell knows. Luck of the draw entrepreneurship. Being in the right place at the right time the passion of a bit of a given talents of a given individual whatever that is but we don't have to figure all that out. I think what we need to do is support. Hundreds of small food and reprisal around the United States except the fact that some of them are gonna rise up and become big multinational companies that's just the nature of free markets we don't wanna try to. Do one size fits all. But I think what we need right now is diversity."

" So how do you get more of these people to invest luckily you as you say you have people already who bar. How you grow from there The Wall Street Journal also. Covered your recent slow money convention in Santa Fe 400 people big success. But Rockefeller -- Christopher Lindstrom. Said you know he's committed this is something he passionately wants to do we must invest his entire portfolio in small scale local businesses like farms. But he scared me to your putting my financial future in the hands of a go to far feels like jumping off a cliff. And this is someone who's enthusiastic."

" A couple of the -- that we live in scary times who's not scared about what's going on the planet right now. But everyone has to decide for themselves if you think the best thing you can do with their money is to keep betting on what we've been doing for the last 75 years if you think that's. The safest most secure -- and keep putting all your money into all the usual products I would argue. Against that but if you're concerned that we're going off a cliff economically culturally which is how I feel. You know I can't have peace in my life of my money is zooming around the planet invested in smokestacks in China that's where most of harmonious that's why we're not having a depression right now. It's not sustainable I know it is insistent on going know what the full alternative is not exactly but I know way to start this is putting its money to work in small things and stamp will."

" the farmers themselves. Are also little leery of saying things like. I'm not sure I want the guy down the street to be. My investor and he's gonna wanna come have a touring get them free cheese and then it might be a little too close for comfort -- some of these small local businesses."

" Play it again not the perfect as the enemy of the good I think that's a good insight. I think the opposite is even more anti animal that is no local investors investing in nothing locally. Robert sometimes I think about how in the sixties and seventies we all discovered that there was no such place as a way remember when the environments and when -- throw something away wears away. And one day just popped in my head to investors as most of places here. In other words were not talked to invest anything where we live it's all markets and sectors and securities and rates of return has nothing to do with where we -- so how can we expect to save the places where we live a full government is invested in some places don't exist again and welcome back to balance."

" We -- mentions on the call the main street exchange so the first stock exchange dedicated to. Several local restorative economy investing in products and services to serve you know the local market how to network and who weren't regulated."

" Perhaps -- will be shocked to -- I have no idea really. Dreaming up a whole new stock exchange is not something one does by oneself when you think abstract -- one -- think about here's a company Patagonia of the season as an example. I happen to be weren't having an -- right now. Patagonia I don't know what the sales or may be 400 million dollars private company. Then a tremendous leader in environmental sourcing I think it was the first company may be in the world clothing companies have -- states to social let's cut organically etc. senators are. Where is Patagonian ago women function of the founder believes he still owns I think 95% of the stock of the company -- what's gonna happen company and answer is nobody knows. Why should there be a place without companies go public but -- that the investors who are investing all share the values shall happen if you pay in exchange for hundreds of those kind of companies and the answer is I'm not sure but I think it's feasible and actually believe it's gonna happen. So one of the beautiful things that's come out of this is a strategy for. Linking together tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands some people even think millions sounds a little crazy of Americans. To put money to work and local food systems using a large number of small donations. Let's be clear that's a membership you're talking about investment -- not money that they are investing -- then get a -- this is separate from and that's separate and the reason we're looking at that now is because we've been talking around the country -- says we -- get going wanna do this right now how do we do it right now and the answer is. If you try to set up a fund or an exchange that is extremely complicated you know all kinds of securities laws. If people wanna send -- 25 dollars tomorrow we can aggregate that we could start investing that money tomorrow and hundreds of these little companies."

" That's really tests he's author of increase into the nature of slow money investing as if farms food and fertility. Matter. Would you open information on our website --"

" Over and get involved and thanks so much thanks -- And that has been fertility had to do with investing in farmers that make the sought out more fertile and fascinating. We'll look ahead tomorrow I'm here now as the space shuttle program is retired now so way to the final report from a commission on future. Humans based travel. That's tomorrow."

" Hand. Support for here and now comes from the listeners of WBUR Boston where the program is produced. Hinckley Allen and Snyder were partners have been giving clients practical legal advice for over a hundred years throughout new England and now including Connecticut. Online it has -- dot com. And the Institute of Contemporary Art on Boston's waterfront presenting the work of a diverse range of contemporary artists performers and more. Ice CA Boston dot org."

" Head of the international atomic energy agency says Iran has agreed to a draft of the deal. That could tamp down concern about Iran developing nuclear weapons. Under the agreement a win would send its uranium to Russia and France. Those countries would in region as a low level grade necessary for nuclear power or medical facilities but not a -- of -- for weapons use. And then send it back to Iran. John minus the BBC's Tehran correspondent in London now because he's expelled from Iran after the election protest this past summer. So John what's your take on this proposed deal."

" And where it's a very neat little deal because. Every side -- coming out of this you're -- get that fuel it needs for this for such reduction Tehran. Titles seems to be fending off pressure when you sanctions still under the steel. Continues to enrich uranium on the other side the west at least get some degree of reassurance. A good chunk of the uranium that Iran has already in rich get shipped -- the country. Converts into use that makes it very difficult time in its nuclear bombs so the west has a little buys a bit of time with its deal."

" Well we just a quick question this may expose our lack of science knowledge. But we wondered if Tehran does approve the deal and sends its uranium to Russia and and then on to France. To enrich it to the level that we spoke of but not to weapons grade is still concerned that they might secretly. In -- further when it returns to Iraq and it was just revealed that they had that. Then secret enrichment plant might they have another might they then enrich the uranium further."

" Can't do that basically under this process C 3.5. Percent in restraining would go to nineteen point 5% still well under. What you need for ball which sported a 90%. And it will be turned into fuel roads and formed more difficult then to. Take 21 side and then thuggery and rich but also it is easier to keep an on field -- Rather than enriched uranium in its current form which is in the big tank. It's easy to track and it's harder to convert to make a bomb itself and not the end of the mattress follows the west is concerned. The United States would still like to see much tighter controls or -- really the uranium enrichment program and a lot of other assurances as well we're -- to."

" Day's news from -- the UN Security Council condemned that terrorist attack on Iran revolutionary guards over the weekend now. It could be claimed responsibility is known mr. and -- army if guide you you're you're well aware of who they are who are day."

" Will this is a group down on the far -- these Colin all -- on system but it just on its a very troubled province. It's mostly believe choose an ethnic minority in Iran and mr. Sunni Muslims from the Shi -- Muslims. Who control the central government in Iran and they basically fighting for the rights of the -- minority talent. And they've been running the sporadic but nevertheless long running campaign that was a bomb attack on a mosque back in May in which I think 25 people killed. Sometimes to be difficult to separated out from the other violence on that particularly. Related to the drugs trade. If you look down on democracy and the convergence of Afghanistan Pakistan and Iran. And this is a main route for smuggling enormous quantities of drugs out of Afghanistan headed towards Western Europe and about to smuggle vital people and about pockets this moment by heavily armed convoys. Really heavily armed dangle this type paramilitary. Gangs and so that'll be asleep overlaps a bit and and one suspects possibly funds. This group -- and out of the army go."

" Who also would think they have their own interest is there any evidence of -- claim that Pakistan the US or Britain. Contributed to that attack on on the revolutionary guard."

" You may remember President Bush opened allocated. A money -- destabilizing hoping opposition. Any wrong and -- stories surface in the in the media that that the made some of this money is push towards his group the United States and Britain would strongly denied this. As for Pakistani involvement what Pakistan has its own problems in the pot globe they also have a very long running insurgency. Pakistan is not in their own problems controlling the -- people -- and helping them to destabilize. The wrong one other possibility is actually that India may be helping. The blue jays possibly because descent and a strategic interest in causing problems -- practiced on the for the amount for Iran and he seized."

" On line from London John thanks so much my -- But the latest note and Iran has made some arrests in Sunday's attack on its revolutionary guard veterans police chief says. He expects Pakistan to catch the main suspects. And Pakistan's Interior Minister says his country is cooperating with -- and and has handed over dozens of suspected militants. In recent months including the brother of John do as the leader."

" Read and weep when disaster. Unfortunately it's -- to shareholders. A sampling of email sent out by top officials at Bank of America and Merrill Lynch. Talking about large losses at Merrill Lynch even has Merrill Lynch was being bought up by Bank of America for fifty billion dollars. Now congress wants to know what did Bank of America know about those losses in -- they know it and why didn't they tell stockholders. Yesterday Bank of America denied that it had withheld any meaningful information from its investors but. Congress is investigating and also wants to know. Why executives at Merrill got billions of dollars in bonuses just as the deal was being closed in January when the bank's new. That the losses were so big near -- business correspondent Eric dash joins us -- it's very complicated. The house oversight and government reform committee is looking into thousands of documents. So let's start with some context this is September 2008. Lehman Brothers collapsing. Kenneth Lewis was head of Bank of America. Why was he acquiring Merrill Lynch."

" Because Merrill understood that it could be next Lehman Brothers has said. It was on the verge of collapse. And Ken Lewis new role in John Thain at Merrill Lynch deal. That they were that next -- line -- fire and -- could be Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs and he needed to do something in the needed to do it fast. And Ken Lewis had always wanted to ask the biggest brokerage house had to sort of this trophy of big businesses Bank of America had been the biggest credit card player the biggest retail banking. Franchised the biggest commercial lender the biggest private bank. And now he had the thundering herd of Merrill Lynch and sites into agreed to do the deal and he did -- at -- very big premium price."

" Will the deal was for Bank of America to -- have Merrill Lynch for fifty billion dollars in stock. It was set for December vote for shareholders. In December 5. And then deal I was too close on January 1 but thank American executives board members like Chad Gifford told Ken Lewis it was a bad idea why."

" Well I think they were very nervous about. And Merrill Lynch. Which itself was troubled at the time they didn't know the depth of its boxes. He didn't really have a good handle on the business and in fact they only. He had you know 48 hour window to do. The due diligence normally this process in a normal acquisition could take weeks and so people were concerned. That Nairobi's cultural issues could to merge -- consumer bank. Which -- investment bank. And could you get an understanding of just how bad the housing market could be."

" Well and then in December writer on the time shareholder vote. Analysts said Bank of America Merrill Lynch start seeing the losses that Merrill Lynch really has and that's where. These newly released emails surfaced people saying things like read in weep when disaster. After the deal closed Gifford and others in January. We're told by Lewis in a conference call. How big these losses were far bigger than they knew that's when Chad Gifford wrote an email saying. The shareholders are screwed. So what does this information tell us."

" These emails essentially tell us what we are ready -- that you know starting in the ball. There were problems with the Bank of America Merrill merger but don't bosses were growing that decision growing turning into a disaster and that people were concerned. That said it's not often it you have just you know inside access to be private thoughts of board members I think it's interesting in that light."

" But doesn't tell us dead officials at Bank of America. Knew something that they didn't tells stockholders. When they approved the deal on December 5."

" Well I think it tells you that they were to disarm but it can beat -- question that. And this you know just how bad did the -- need to get before they could tell wars. I think that's the one of these matters to before -- congressional investigators to federal investigators and state investigators."

" Here's another question that's been floating around. There's been this debate. As to whether or not government officials put inappropriate pressure on Bank of America to make this deal. Then Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Ben Bernanke. Had apparently signed off on it and Bank of America officials say that they we're told that incoming Obama officials. Lawrence Summers and Tim Geithner would also approve of the deal. But does anything that's newly surfaced tell us whether or not they put undue pressure on Ken Lewis who you just said. Some like he really -- make a deal despite some of his own people telling in the slowdown."

" I'm not sure that it actually does that in fact they're -- Atheist suggestion that some have been the emails that have been released. That Bank of America was actually using its approach to the government to get leverage to allow to back out."

" Well this is another question that congress is considering whether Bank of America -- Kenneth Lewis. Went to government officials in December after the shareholders vote but before the deal actually sealed on January 1. And told the government officials about these huge losses and threatened to. That out of the deal to save Merrill Lynch and less it's more bail out money in and in other words. Uses that threat as leverage to get more bail out money and again this is when he is not told shareholders his concern. About the Merrill Lynch losses so what are the questions there."

" Great organic hinges on this question of computer reality just how big are -- losses -- duty this Bank of America need. Shareholders so as of December instead of Bank of America officials say we don't need to Topps shareholders about these losses. Before the shareholder. Vote because they want to complete the deal but then just a week or two later. You know the losses are growing bigger and they now say. It would be a place to there legal advisers. Well maybe we should help the government. Maybe they're we can do use this as a legal -- to renegotiate the price of the deal. The big government doesn't want Bank of America to renegotiate the deal because they're afraid of sort of that the threat to the market stability as you have to remember that the markets -- extremely jittery that tax. It's a Bank of America then approaches. Hank Paulson says look. We believe that we can renegotiate -- deal but. You could also provide some bailout money. And allow us to complete what's really interesting though is just a day or two before. Bank of America's own legal advisers called the bank that book. There's only a slim possibility that you could win exercised this legal out so this is really high stakes negotiating strategy that catalyst was."

" In other words I -- Lewis went to the government to demand more money even though his lawyers had told him that. Legally it was a slim possibility he'd get it did he get."

" So he did get to bail out when the terms of that second bailout case. They were more or worse conditions than any of the board members got. Hence we have Chad Gifford one of the Bank of America board members say well this is terrible it's really unfortunate. And it screws to shareholders. In a burst of frustration when he -- that -- the deal."

" Chad Gifford will be on testifying before congress. Erik we've laid the table for the hearings that are coming up but critical components."

" Look I think that we will have more -- last word documents but I'm not quite sure if we'll have more understanding. But hopefully will be able to tease that out and here pages of the aircraft."

" Nick Jones business correspondent Eric -- thanks as always. Listen it was complicated. If you ever -- listen to a story again don't forget you discuss it here now dot org and click in the archives in his into it with a pen and -- Here now and a second minute here and now."

" Support for here and now comes in part from the Rockefeller Foundation and its campaign for American workers. More at rock found dot org welcome back."

" You know composer have to billions once disguised himself in women's clothing and set up to kill the woman he loved. The Philip Glass was taxi driver."

" Then smaller."

" Look at London's new book secret. Lives of weak -- what teachers never told you about the world news. Also tells us that John Cage was obsessed with fungus. Yeah."

" And -- over his church's organ pipes and sold them for scrap."

" Like The National Enquirer for the classical sense and listen to and he joins us more welcome thank you so much for having me let's talk with. A bang."

" Tchaikovsky. Many people may not know that he was. Gay in nineteen century Russia this is a time and it was very dangerous. It was very dangerous it not only would have ruined his career he probably would have ended up in prison and he worked design he did you work bizarre he received message -- commissions through the government or through that state ministry in the -- so it was a very serious thing in and not simply that he can at all repeal and with a great pains. Two height so much so that he got me right. But you have uncovered some references to the fact that he did have a channel line. That appears to be the case that the references are very secure and fleeting they're seen to be. And gay Moscow subculture that it was theories sub sub sub culture -- what does this tell us about his music. It tells us how hard he had to work. To achieve such a light and floating it acts. What does it tell us about his death. For years the story was that he died of cholera. From drinking and and -- glass of water. But the stories your theory conflict scene and then as late as 1979. A story came out that he had in fact killed himself. Under pressure to use stopped his homosexuality from being revealed."

" So as an -- to -- let's move from that to Franz Liszt who. Wouldn't tour. And was followed by a throng of -- Was he really the first Rothstein. I think he really was he was incredibly good looking he seem to have."

" This rock star charisma. On stage he was very dramatic he would played piano when he meets die and he would. Throw his hair back he had long hair and he would toss it around in an apparently they were just just fainting in the aisles. And women would bomb Iran didn't try to clip his hair and stimulus handkerchiefs. And apparently throw themselves at him at every opportunity and he seemed to have no problem catching them."

" US so -- promiscuous he fathered children out of wedlock but then seemed to take a turn. He ended very unexpected turn surprised everyone when he became -- east that we hear this personal life in his music in your mind. What the drama lists music is the."

" Almost over -- sometimes. I think he probably really into late playing thundering chords and grand crescendo is because they gave him an opportunity -- To really live it up it. So off that. Well speaking of drama. You -- of Robert human. That he was haunted by demons. And how so. Theory sad story it seems that when he was the unmanned heat caught syphilis syphilis if you don't treated with antibiotics. It can lay dormant in your body for many many years and then manifested itself. Decades later as insanity. And sell after. Happily nearing the girl of his dreams clash came on and having several children. He suddenly. Started hearing angelic voices that they in turned into team money shrinking. And it was so troubling that he actually escaped the house and is bathrobes and slippers and attempted to actually succeeded in throwing himself in their in the Rhine river. And this is mental illness. As you said dude is medical illness and how much did you find when word classical composers driven crazy by the music itself. Molly was of particular case and it's like there are there are those who were somewhat tormented by their music Beethoven is another example. There are all composers who seem to be eminently sane. You know -- was just a sensible guy who loved his wife and had twenty children -- shock is another example. I wanna -- mentioned Corsica and love. Your mention that in 1893 when Americans. -- deeply segregated he me the comment that he felt that the future of American music. Was going to be the negro morality and when you think of the blues jazz rock general everything that came. That's pretty -- Absolutely he loved coming to America and he loved listening to two African American spiritual and actually wrote his own version of us."

" Your ritual. For his new world symphony. -- Yeah. It's hot when he made this statement that he African American music would drive -- in the future. The American sixteen shocked and horrified they want it to draw on the same European sources as they're European colleagues and we're absolutely. -- by the foot putt that you would turn to these vulnerabilities. But it was remarkably fresh and in most speaking of shots in her time. Just last comment on the line near Reno and inspired Hitler. As Woody Allen since I can't listen to Wagner did he has to conquer Poland and."

" I -- it knows it you know. And -- children police negligence. I think he would have wanted you to know to keep you like to present himself answer a man's man. But the fact he'd have to think for pink silk. And he would order on these now English saying it's in two resting -- and slippers. From parents and put them on his. Secret room full of pink presents which just you know whatever floats your boat out -- absolutely we're not just. Insulin."

" If one -- other of secret lives of pretty composed of what you teachers never told you about the -- of these things positive thinking so much for these hearings and -- You're very welcome thanks so much for having -- Here announced production of WBUR Boston in association with the BBC world service and -- I'm not. Tell -- again. Here and."