Title: Transportation in Transition

" And."

" This is radio Boston I'm Jane Clayson. Most people don't think much about transportation infrastructure or its importance in our daily lives until it's gone."

" I'm still for hours away from my campaign and going home on weekends I need something fun. Now."

" The people who live around the southern shores of Lake Champlain in Vermont and upstate New York had the rug yanked from under their feet a few weeks ago. The long neglected Champlain bridge was abruptly closed because of safety concerns. For people like Christina -- who lives on one side of the lake and works on the other it's been more than an inconvenience. It's been a crisis."

" I've got a forty minute drive to school hours and I hate my job I hear the insurance from my children. And it seems like there's a lot of we're gonna we're gonna what I eat something now."

" Those of us in the -- state need only look north to the green Mountain State to see how crucial transportation systems are to every aspect of modern life. So could something like this Champlain bridge closure happened here. A new report on the MBTA released this week seems to suggest."

" Maybe we have to recognize that we have the oldest. Transportation system MBTA system in the country and our system. Is -- report author David D'Alessandro and Wednesday's press conference. Government needs to not continue. They can't get gently push off this debt and these and these problems because we're gonna end up -- and infrastructure deteriorates so quickly and so vastly. And as to cause a tremendous chaos if these problems unaddressed."

" What kind of problems for one corroded fasteners that threaten to snap on one section of the Red Line between Harvard -- life. Here's Alessandro talking with New England cable news."

" They say there's a possibility of derailment. I would not ride that section the Red Line until I was assured that there -- asset."

" Governor Deval Patrick says no one writing that he or traveling Massachusetts roads and bridges is in danger. He also says he has no intention of putting off problems structural or financial anymore."

" For too long we have not dealt with the service and financial problems the team has faced. Folks it looked the other way and not frankly always told the truth. That ends today."

" But how does it and where will the money come from because the governor says no new fair or toll increases are on the horizon. Listeners how much are you willing to pay to prevent a crisis like they're having up in Vermont right now or worse. A fare hike toll increases. Join our conversation today at 1804238255. That's 18143. Tock or common online at radio Boston -- York. This week managers have begun the herculean task of merging many of the State's transportation bureaucracies. Into the new Massachusetts Department of Transportation or mass stopped. Which had its official launch at the beginning of the week it's also post to save money but his radio Boston's David the -- reports that."

" Isn't very much in question."

" Navigate to Framingham. I liked John tells me and 25 minutes away for a -- mob in the -- now. We might have expected it to be at peak days like. After all it was Monday and then mass turnpike authority that once -- all 138. Miles of it. Which is it is adored him. Age fifty -- The state legislature had turned it into what court -- pushed out of the way like it overheated car the turnpike breakdown lane. We were now paying are told to do consolidated and gigantic. Massachusetts Department of Transportation. Mercifully short to -- my kids when I first got a point that we're used to call it -- time. Mary can't iTunes run as important group of mass turnpike authority and it's on. As unceremoniously. Is the authority itself. According to the governor and the legislature. She in the authority we're giving away fundamental reform. Better streamlined cost efficient way of running and fixing State's major roads bridges trains buses and subways. -- as Dodd is also swallowing this tightly department registry of motor vehicles and soon the MBTA that pulling me. Legislation was going through this and it has said that. They expected about six point five billion dollars worth of savings over twenty years. A great reason word true for consolidating all these transportation entities as Mary comment and but now the head of the mega giant -- dot himself. Says it won't seem that much money -- as Jeff Mullen and like to be aspiration I think that missile. Something's. That I think waste self according -- fiscal watchdog Michael Widmer. -- doubts the savings will amount to much more than a billion dollars over twenty years to be fair. As -- is just come to life. Al-Qaeda. How much it's these ads to question you know work for. Yet perhaps it's telling them on -- day you might think would yield or -- big. Almost nothing looks any different on the turnpike as we -- turnpike operations building in west incentive to operate these efficiencies we mess DOT I have. They put a little masking tapes and over. Over the building. There it is there first it. Science and DOT -- And as to the pilgrim hat is still there at that time be. There are no new wrote us a new logos. Only the names have been changed it's enough to make comment and wonder. He's battled injuries it is a big disappointment and the public was expecting something big. Which was still on that turnpike board Gary Condit and was called we -- what I asked for continually. But over the past several months was -- projecting cash flow statement. What this consolidation is going to look like where this -- coming from and the beneficiaries. Aren't going to feed for this -- And no one has yet into the -- If consolidation is going to save money as proponents claim NASA dot we'll have to adjust lower salaries or benefits. To former employees at the plight of the MBTA. Which in turn requires negotiations with the whole range of unions representing some 10000. Employees to have savings. That would mean that the former campaign workers there and it's down to statewide level -- of course that -- unions would be against that they'd rather see. In the state workers come up to -- levels. Yeah."

" One big savings mask does counting on comes from reducing healthcare benefits for the MBTA workers. It amounts to thirty to forty million dollars a year yet that objective may be rewarded when union losses. And has been talk about laying off 300 employees. But nothing is meant by -- legislation created that stock. But it's nice that they let you keep the badge for a while there are not well I think this is -- like tomorrow. -- Iraq's very cross Darnell Williams is taking its last rise in support group the MCT yet. He points to -- does need to negotiate with 26. --"

" workers' pay our collective benefits that's not the right way to go. Because there already taken a hit with inflation and cost of goods what we -- try to do is efficiency and effectiveness and not be in day."

" Transportation consolidation doesn't do anything about -- billion to offered to gorillas in the room. From my perspective any savings is necessary we need to take -- because we spent a lot of so Jeff Mullen the CEO of the new may go authority talks about cutting the grass less often along the turnpike. We're getting volume discounts by buying larger amounts of road self. But remember this. NASA dot median estimate twenty billion dollars for the next twenty years. Just to keep its roads -- and equipment from falling apart. That's a lot of discounts on --"

" Pretty Boston's date February."

" Joining me now is the secretary and CEO of the brand new Massachusetts Department of Transportation -- dot. Jeff Mullen Jeff welcome turn of Austin thank you thank you and thank you for being here combining all these disparate agencies under one umbrella about 10000 employees in all working on highways and trains the registered motor vehicles. It is a massive undertaking do you see this is a significant accomplishment."

" Absolutely this is the biggest thing we've -- interest potential for yet it's here and we won't get another chance to do this for forty more so what I'm focused on is getting it right but there's no question that this is in the this is an enormous undertaking and it's extremists."

" Mr. Alan you started your first week on the job downplaying. And at six point two billion dollars in transportation savings that's. An estimated over twenty years the Massachusetts taxpayers association says it might be closer to about one billion over twenty years much do you think. That you can actually say."

" It's premature for me to put a number matter -- I will say to the listeners that we party realize savings in those are large savings. But that 200 plus million dollars that we saying is too. Because we avoided determination payments that we were looking at as a result of the swat. Financial transactions that the turnpike authority addicted to 2001. We are realizing savings and help and benefit alliance. Due to the work that we've done with the highway unions that we. We concluded last week and then we've got small savings. It would save it 200 dollars a month because we've consolidated the way we distribute parts between Massport and the Mass Pike and France -- operations so there. Saving a large and small there will be more of them but I think it's premature for me to put a particular numbers."

" Step in realizing some savings to be sure but there are many people who are aware that the process of combining these agencies in of itself is actually gonna cost. A lot of money things like rectifying different commuter computer systems. New signs things like that those costs must be significant than."

" Well I I heard I heard the comment about the science and I I have to said that I did pick up a slight chuckle because we are consciously not swapping out science perfectly good signs that -- Massachusetts turnpike authority in the stay up there until they need to be replaced. We are trying to communicate to people what our new game is we've got a new web site that was developed all in house with our own employees. -- it's certainly there's a communication these people need to know. Who they're dealing with when they're running the state transportation."

" Let me ask you more about where. These savings over the long term might come from. We heard in the piece that that some of the savings would come from buying salts from buying equipment in -- committee not cutting the grass on the turnpike has often. Sounds like he'll obviously save a little money there but what LT gonna need to do what deep cuts will you have to make here."

" The simple once savings I think we're over the last on the outside is through an integrated workforce. Being able to deploy all of our workers in all of our areas on the highway cited particular we're not able to do that now. Because of our union rules but we are working hard on that. And those -- reasonable -- will be able to reduce -- overtime expenses and become more efficient in our organization."

" also would have to lay off people in the cost cuts that your talking about and that you need to do. Are you really -- just have to lay people off and a reduced benefits to that point for some employees who. Have very generous pension and health benefits."

" Well as nice setup with respect to the benefits we've got to highway users to greet of that already so we're -- that's in process that began November wind."

" What about the jobs themselves."

" The jobs themselves you know the reduction enforces this and that we don't have the franchise of that interest. Petition that's happening across state government we are all working hard in state government without. With the budget issues that the commonwealth faces and we will do job reductions here I'm focused on eliminating redundancy. But when I see redundancy SC and at the top of the organization not the bottom and that's where my focuses."

" You mentioned the unions the state is trying to save some 35 million dollars per year by bringing MBTA employees into the states group health insurance plan. That's a move that the -- union people have opposed that actually sued the state to stop this from happening. Are you be able to realize a savings in the face of these very strong powerful unions."

" Well it's not just the unions -- of people are resistant to change so that's just something about human behavior that we have to understand. I don't wanna speak to to the specifics of the litigation that -- defending. But I'm confident that we will defended vigorously it will continue to work without unions to try to get the MBTA. Unionized employees onto the group."

" Church is there -- stands as we did is there a sense from the unions that they are willing to give summit did that this is in their long term best interest given the financial situation being so dire."

" Well I certainly think do you need to prepare to cooperate with us. There's no question that."

" Take a call a Jeff Mullen now Richard is in Bedford a -- radio Boston Richard hello."

" So thank you for taking my call pact earlier existing programs 2%. One of the things I want to act on much earlier statement in reference to how much -- I want to pain in my feeling is that I have already paid in taxes on MySpace. That transportation of gas and I council member of the -- trade -- years ago we took on the issue pushing for a gas increased. -- we -- Republicans and wrote in the years ago. And it happened so much to let the light. And then after what the legislators turned around took those on the it's sentiment other locations. And we can probably to the State's Supreme Court to verify it. And it says that the state legislature does have the right over does that transfer funds where -- and his authority and so forth so it makes sense. But again until it that's spending -- money where -- supposed to I don't know how we're gonna correct these problems."

" Richard thank you Jeff Mullen now Richards won this. You know where's the transparency here is this is this truly fair in the allocation of funds."

" Well the they are. But what the -- what but the courts said is that they don't have to be the actual dollars. So what happens is money to move out of the highway fund. It from the general fund into our highway account so that's a constitutional protection which is enjoyed by the citizens but Richard -- bigger point. One that we've been saying as well we're focused on. Reforming the system. It would focus that's topic that nonsense and transportation. Until we prove to the electorate citizens of the commonwealth that we can be proper Stewart's. Of our system and has the governor said on Wednesday. Can assure people that the system is safe when not gonna be laden."

" Here's another call -- to that point here's Alden in Acton Alden welcomed three of Boston hello."

" I think taking my good. I just say that I'd be willing to pay a fare increase especially if they were to increase a lot -- that he as well make it safer. Especially at a lot of the art aerobic. It it really can be need to get back and forth after the close."

" Are an old and thank you thank circuit thanks very much Jeff Mullen let me ask about the -- safety here because you attend the press conference on Wednesday. At which this very troubling and BCA report is released 51 outstanding maintenance problems were classified as presenting quote a danger to life or limb of passengers. Or employees. 543. Million dollars in critical safety projects which are unfunded in the current budget is -- realistic to think -- you can start attacking. That maintenance backlog with the revenue sources that you currently."

" Well I'm working on that right now just as soon as I finish with this interview Bill Mitchell and I getting on the Red Line and we'll go to hell likes to -- to meet the -- that's been inspecting that section of that. The of the line here and I have a report for the mascot board on Monday where we're gonna lay out a preliminary plan of attack we we want to bring -- They consultants to take a look at those 51 projects and develop a plan to. To evaluate each and every one of them ten and I have a better sense to the extent that question what's -- finished with."

" Let me let me ask about David D'Alessandro because the former executive who headed up the report he made some very alarming comments he says he would not ride the Red Line between Harvard and no life. He thinks it's dangerous he actually worried about derailment. Governor Patrick could very quickly walked back on that saying it is safe he even made a point of writing a red line on Wednesday. And set -- so you think it's safe is at the."

" You'll you know it what David said was that he wouldn't ride the Red Line until. It was established in satisfaction and safe."

" guy you appointed by the governor to study the system says he won't write it why should anybody else feel comfortable running well."

" Just because -- confidence in the MBTA safety inspectors in the people who are out there looking at these issues every single day supply side in the public should rest assured that the system mistakes the system needs constant apparently it's the state of good -- is it is it is alarming and is very large and it's up to that we need to address immediately."

" Jeff -- money and bring in another voice here to talk little bit about the unique which situation on the T we have believed that swayed them on the line he's president of the T writers. Union mr. -- widow -- hundred of Austin thank you as a watchdog were you surprised by this alarming report by David D'Alessandro or did confirm everything -- worried about publicly for years."

" You know much of it I think it is is confirming I think what many transit advocates know and people would fall in negotiations. But I think the reported that a good job that I really hope that our state legislature is paying attention. I think there's a lot of really good information. And and the only piece that I hope -- attitude is go to recommendations -- coming. As well as sort of more correct perspective about alternate service to sanction those nations interest. Immediately."

" Governor Patrick says he's not willing to raise fares until service. Improves are you confident. That sufficient savings can be found in the current revenue structure in order to improve service."

" You know I'm very hopeful about that I mean that we had preacher increases since 2000 as many people -- the fourth and you know -- a short term solution it is writers are released. Particularly those two you know experiencing increasing increasing cost and -- part of their life. But not increasing salaries and so. From many who typically rely on him -- it to get them to work places of business job opportunities schools hospitals so on and so forth. It's critical the service that just must be addressed and and we can't continue to have the cycle fare increases it's not sustainable it's not a good good way to run business."

" Just don't -- about that point. The fare -- point do you feel comfortable with that prospect."

" According to -- yeah well. Yes I think it's I think the road that we were on that -- that was untenable we got a report not it lays out a bit of a road -- we've got recommendations coming to the mascot board which got a clear charged. And -- addressing issues that the governor has. As has laid out people we people are looking at directions that absolutely comfortable with that."

" way to I really appreciate your time thank you very much. Thank you -- that's way to president of the -- runners. Union let's go to calling and Luis. Is in Somerville police say is that Luis."

" Hello again and thank -- effect taking my call thank you can't I am dead -- fifty to two. At peak at the whole question looked at from the higher lever that can you speak of things which can -- the -- question that. One cannot think of what revenue. Can be integrated I I look. System which -- sweat and payments ahead input can be given to and it economically to a I system which were -- and predict. And and the European and me and I would come get it because of the many advantages Boston and it can outfit them. Frankly and yet it's not -- that people think it's time that -- poker but it was so. The letter stating that they region other state -- as bad as a certain action and actually cut taxes go towards analyzes the has -- big city what are."

" And something we're not as familiar with here in the United States Louise thank you for that perspective Jeff -- let me ask you about. Governor Patrick and a comment he made about a year ago on this program. Where he expressed openness to border tolls here he is on the."

" Border tolls and all of the interstate inches is maybe and maybe route three is well in other words Vermont New Hampshire Rhode Island Connecticut New York. If we did get right it would be possible. Possible to remove all of the tools inside. Of the commonwealth maybe keep something at the tunnel."

" Jeff Mullen that possibility seems to have drifted. From memory over the last year to your mind is still a good idea."

" Well which had a big year transportation and it is time that the governor mentioned that that was before we -- the transportation reform law aren't and be fully engaged to significantly on the on the debate about the book -- increase in the motor vehicle fuel tax so. Revenues are up new revenue dropped to table right now we're focused on implementing. The protest petition reform lies we have at hand and saving inefficiencies in and that's what we believe we have assistance and state."

" Jeff Mullen will be hearing from your predecessor James -- we see in a few minutes and one of the ideas for new revenue that he is pushing is this vehicle miles. Traveled or VMT. It would electronically charged highway travelers a feed her my own usually around a penny or so per mile traveled on."

" And I'll honor he."

" Highways is this a good idea."

" Well certainly familiar with the technology. And ultimately what the comments that secretary lahood and President Obama has has spoken about that I think it's premature to look at any one. Solution but you know I can mention to look into the future and and I'm happy to listen to his ideas."

" Think it would work here."

" Oh I don't know I -- I think I think it's a little bit too far away I think to make a prediction on that right now."

" I'm I'm just curious how the average commuter and Jeff Mullen or the average taxpayer in Massachusetts is going to be affected by this. Big announcement this week this big transportation overhaul which you are now offer saying yeah."

" Yes well. We have a singular focus on customer service we are trying to turn the bureaucracy around and run the system like our custom music I expect that that will be more frequent announcements regarding congestion on our highways and back -- And and and slow service on our transit system I want that to -- eliminate geographic boundaries and -- I wanna run system as efficiently as possible. I'm hoping that that's. That number one issue that people see -- and secondly I'm I'm asking people to go to the bottom line and see whether or not we've saved money then. Because we're committed to that as well."

" Well thank you very much Jeff Mullen is the State's new secretary and CEO of mass start to appreciate your time thank you thank you right. Listeners of what about it has the status quo been sufficiently shaken to the point where you might be willing to pay more for transportation in Massachusetts. Or do you think we need to give the new -- time to find savings before raising tolls or fares. Would you be open to new technologies such as -- feet per vehicle. For every mile traveled join our conversation 1804238255. That's 18143. Talk. Or as always comment online radio Boston -- When we come back we'll hear more about open rolled tolling and other ways to finance the State's transportation needs with the former secretary of transportation James -- recent. Back in sixty seconds I'm Jane Clayson as his review Boston. This is -- Abbas and I'm Jane Clayson Governor Deval Patrick unveiled his transportation reform bill back in February."

" The days of avoiding the truth and the consequences. Must ended ended ended now we are all at a time. Now's the time to reform and renew our system from top to bottom."

" That legislation has now become a reality and this hour were dissecting what it means and would love to hear from you 1804238255. That's 180423. Tock. We just heard from the states in new secretary and CEO of mass -- Jeff Mullen. And joining me now from the studios of Maine public broadcasting and Portland is a former secretary of transportation -- releasing welcomed radio Boston. Thank you for having me you're in charge mr. Allen received transportation in Massachusetts when this reform legislation was conceived. And -- save the kind of money the system so desperately needs to be sustainable."

" Now. It won't end I don't think anyone really expects it to it'll save some money. They'll be cost efficiencies as Jeff points out to them that will save money but that the dimension and the magnitude of the additional funding that we need in Massachusetts. To make our chance station system work to make it safe to make it efficient. It goes well well beyond whatever cost efficiencies and you can squeeze. This performed well."

" So I'm curious which fiscal prediction you believe six billion over twenty years since savings as has been stated one billion in the low lands or less what you think."

" You know the not a predictor of the future I'd be in a different line of businessmen I think it's on the low end because look of the facts that. You can you know you -- Salt and bulk and you can. Layoff people and you can have efficiencies and the points. -- if you. Fired each of the 10000 employees amassed tomorrow we'd have billions and billions and billions in needs that would go -- dressed so you can't really. Expect to have the cash cost efficiencies on the backs of the working men and women -- So is it an -- Ryan that the new mascot is gonna have to find new revenue sources -- well it tolls or fares are taxes. Well it's inevitable that we need net new revenue I've been talking about that all your line the questions going to be in what form. I think that we've you know of the governor and I earlier this year made a very strong effort. Two bring a proposed gas Saxton. The legislature and they rejected it now look. The gas tax hasn't gone up in Massachusetts -- 1991. Since 1991 since the first George Bush was president. Has not gone up since in the -- Indicator for inflation. So when you think of the value of the assets over time in Massachusetts. It's really have been diminished to a point where it's less and less effective and of course as we become greener. As there are more fuel efficient vehicles. Those vehicles using less gas in the gas tax itself is becoming less and less viable. As -- stable sustainable way to raise transportation revenue."

" similar to look else where these savings and it come from and in the governor's been saying -- new revenue before reform no new revenue before reform over and over it's is monstrous you know. Where they said he's gonna come from."

" Well again I think there will be savings I just don't think that the element to the kind of savings. Genocide of the whole and the best thing about this reform bill. If people want to think about this for second is actually not the money tennis. The best thing about this reform bill -- it's gonna for the first time bring coherence to the development and implementation of transportation policy because now. All of these silos are independent of each other with a singular exception Massport. Are together under -- so you can have a coherent approach to the implementation of policy. That's a good thing for the people Massachusetts but that's a very different -- costs I think the cost savings but when I was secretary of -- Over a hundred people a lot of people left front attrition minority we're probably down to a 300 people already eaten. As a function of the old -- and I have 2222 to undertake -- attrition. Wave we will get some additional cost savings but it won't be because I think people expect and therefore. You've got to go back to the harsh but the simple reality witches. We haven't raced against that since 1991. We need to find a new way of collecting transportation revenue. And since we tried to raise cast -- this year and failed. It's clear to me that raising the gas tax is not going to be something that's easy to do that it that the legislature will want to do even after the election it."

" Let's hear more from our listeners. And now mistrial -- we see -- is in Cambridge Kathy thank you for waiting what welcome during a Boston."

" I didn't think taking my com. And I think came but I wanted to point out that. We recently passed a big increase in the sales tax now that affects everyone including the -- you know Letterman comment that a class everybody. And then tried to do other things to -- on how to team like increase. Tight to talk on the pike and that's and my point of saying is that the people who have -- money in this state. -- think. It's time for them to step up. Because this is a commonwealth and -- need help each other and everything on the backs of the poor. And does -- really wanted to say."

" Kathy thanks for the call thank you very much mr. Allen into about it well I think the caller has an excellent point in my. The legislature thought the raising the cells that accidents sending some of that to transportation was the solution. It's a stopgap solution and it's an imperfect one. It only prevented a crisis at the turnpike and the potential crisis of the team but it didn't provide any net new revenue and it's the column pointing out. The middle class. And the poor who have to go buy things and not paying higher cell -- and put them into transportation and what we need to have. As an honest conversation with people in Massachusetts. About raising transportation revenue from transportation. Sources. And not to keep turning to the sales tax -- the politically expedient solutions. For. The fists transportation revenues solution we just need to have them honest conversation and I think if we do. People are open minded in -- good faith and don't understand that we need. To do this."

" James island EC is my against former secretary of transportation for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. From Brookline now AJ is on the line AJ welcome to -- Boston hello."

" I area. -- the prematurely -- after raising revenues for that I transportation to get back there. Although picking it -- high technology things like heat per mile. Track. It would be really and to implement and you don't really difficult as well -- Wouldn't be worth giving -- japs attacked another try at least that would also encourage people you'd better mileage vehicles."

" thank you -- elements seem well you know I guess has my view having been in the trenches and having it made an effort this year and a strong effort. I I believe that it is virtually impossible. To get a gas tax passed through the legislature so we have to just face that reality. Words mean something to people and so holes fare hikes. Gas tax all of those things. People respond to very negatively in the legislature's response the very negatively which is why. Have been suggesting a different way and I go back to have a point of then everyone misunderstand. The president is committed to a greener and more environmentally conscious approach to vehicle emissions from but when he twelfth. Anyone who owns a Prius up their -- one of these hybrid vehicles knows that they pay probably half. Then -- and everyone else in terms of when -- tank up there to attack. The value of the gas taxes we -- greener more fuel efficient the vehicular fleet. By definition is going to diminish we need to prepare for the day when the gas tax is no longer the sustainable revenues."

" So let me ask you about one of your other ideas which is his DNT. Three. This -- that every vehicle would pay for every mile traveled on our highways essentially have a little GPS device. On your car that would track how many miles you drive and that would charge the fee. Accordingly. Correct so. Do you think that would work did you think Lawler says it might be too expensive too difficult to."

" You -- you know it's. This is already it's a proven technology. Of any significant pilot project the program and are again a few years ago proved. That you can do this with today's technology and you can you can prove. -- prevent any intrusion into anyone's privacy because the data that's collected does not. Contain information about where you've been now here's the thing. We know the guest that is not popular let's forget about the gas tax and let's think about the future. If you charge people by the -- Instead of charging them gas stats are Heidi yes that acts. I was on the chance to ship finance commission we look at this we think that you could generate literally billions of dollars but I'm just talking about interstate ghost ship some people's cars in the first -- Very simple. The registered motor vehicles as part amassed. It's a simple but whenever you get your car inspected every year you get a chipper you get a device -- it's real simple. And it is nothing complicate and what about all those people commuting from New Hampshire and Rhode Island -- college students who live here for years and and I'll never get played some in there are significant populations out there. There aren't there are ways to do that including video telling him again that in Toronto does have its own system that's in operation today -- not a theory it's actually works. So there's a way to deal with that. When you when you think about it the empty approach of charging people buying a mile. You can do it fairly so for example when you're driving him Berkshire County Franklin County in a rural area. And by definition you're traveling longer distances we can charge you less -- When -- and congestion urban area or you're driving peak time we can charge you more. I wanted him back to the -- mr. -- we see and I hear your point I dislike it's the number of listeners -- on an appointee here's Carol in Cambridge Carol thank you for waiting what country in Boston."

" Hi thanks for having me wonder how much of this conversation should really be about the debt that we are and for the because it seems to me that art transportation system could -- itself if we weren't all that debt justice if you had to pay a big mortgage and you couldn't afford your life."

" So I'm wondering if there's more creative ways to pay off the debt -- transportation system can be free to run itself. Because they've been a lot of our money that we're getting in the -- it's going to the debt and interest but it is accruing."

" Terrific question and great point Carol thanks for calling Big Dig debt and Alison there it's a great question and it's it's more than Big Dig debt. We pay. Over 80%. Of former mass highway employees. Now massed on employees. On our capital budget on borrowed money money that we borrow. On the capital budget that should go into road and bridge work is being used to pay for people salaries that's a disgrace we try to fix that. Governor and I and our bill in February. Cast that that be fixed the legislature deferred. We are masking. How. Really bad this problem is by borrowing the MBTA has two billion dollars of debt that's Big -- related things that the team was required to do for the Big -- And the state has not yet relieved to impeach him that two billion dollars which would be huge. Benefit for the riders Hannity so as the collar is absolutely right whenever the borrowing is a fine tool I'm not against borrowing. But when you borrow to the exclusion of all the things you begin to mask and hide for people with the true costs interest nations."

" Here's another collagen and jealousy from -- from now on Newbury port candy is on the line can welcome turn of Boston hello."

" Good afternoon. -- Okay I have one actually it's Libya. To full comic. A question and one is I'm very it is yet but the reorganization for many reasons but one of which may have newer engineers from around the state. To trying uniforms some of this debt I'm relieved to hear that that discussion. Of our. And vehicle mileage management being distributed among. It's different rates from those that don't necessarily. Use. It that you western road -- and perhaps some. -- Disappointment that every. Commuters attention bused in from the north tasteful yet none from the west themselves. In conceded that being. We're excited -- and actually keep passing area residents to implement it in other states such as New York futures were the best thing that any. In. That where the traffic to slow you know both of any sort but don't choose not you'd have to get off the road and get themselves you know."

" Yeah I hear it's a great point and I really appreciate you calling for time's sake eminent throw this over to James -- Lisa what about the -- Equity in then in the transportation. System as it stands now with these tools. Well as it stands now there assignment there are some serious equitable issues particularly if you're driving -- from the west and so. Again. A new approach different approach the line suggests. Will I think provide -- highly equitable formula. Four there raising of transportation and we've got to think about that as we explore new ways. To sustain a system we can't and the if it's like the MBTA in particular have been very passionate about time a public transportation secretary. We have got to. That's on a scathing report that's a candid report that you got from -- centro and it's that report. Mirrors the report of the transition finance commission we have got to stop kicking that can down the wrong we have got to provide people who use the T. With a fair allocation trust -- revenues that they haven't had in decades."

" To instantly see is the former secretary of the executive office of transportation. I really appreciate your time today sir thank you very much thank you very much. We were also earlier joined by the new secretary of transportation and CEO of -- on Jeff Mullen. Listeners you can continue this conversation at radio Boston dot org and you can also follow us on Twitter find -- and -- cost. After a quick break -- and Harvard alumnus take note. There's a new book out and illustrated history of Harvard Square. Hundreds of archival photos and stories with essays from luminaries who passed through the so called smartest urban space in America."

" From my four years there I remain grateful that this colonial and neo colonial palace of higher learning that pitched itself and it down to earth. If not downright -- American city."

" We'll take a tour with a man who wrote the wonderful new book on Harvard Square back in one minute."

" I'm Jane Clayson Israeli post. And."

" in his radio Boston I'm Jane Clayson Harvard Square has gone through many transitions since 1950. From a DNG commercial center catering mostly to town east to a center for youth counterculture during the Vietnam era. To the posh some say -- to refine urban center that it is today. -- among allotment has a new book out offering an illustrated history of Harvard Square since 1950. Stories essays and over 500 historical and contemporary photographs. Chart the transition of Harvard Square through the years. He chronicles not only the streets skate but the human characters who have made this neighborhood historic and colorful."

" You ask anybody on the street they'll probably tell you story about some crazy person they knew -- loved your -- heard. Some of the people like brother -- came out here and it's storytelling. Decked out in blue and butterflies and barefoot in the street."

" Just this week that legendary Harvard Square presence passed into history doctor Hugh killed better known as brother -- died Tuesday at the age of 88. His death underscores the importance of keeping history alive. Allotment to be around Harvard Square this week with a copy of his book in hand to talk about the past and the present. Up what's been called the smartest urban space in America."

" Why book about Harvard Square well you know I spend a lot of time Roberts where I was. Just so exciting horse that just seem to be this buzz. That I didn't. Recognize from any of the other places I've been you know I wanna know how did this place become this place and so I. Started doing some research on my own hands. After a couple of weeks holed up at the Cambridge historical commission I -- the mythology is I guess I'm writing this book. Show -- media attention. So what we're standing now doesn't look very photogenic we're looking at Citizens Bank guy ATMs. This this was heard very many years the home of the tasty sandwich shop which is a very very popular. Very miniscule. Diner type of establishment. That was here from 1916. Until 1997. That this."

" Picture here for example which is of the interior of the tasty. I love this photo because not only is does that show the tasty but I feel like it captures the time period so so well this is from the eighties and -- these two young women in these. Round hats which we're I think only popular complete peace and I just I just love it in there and they're they're eating two of the main."

" Food groups at the tasty smokes and soda. Sixteen stills are on the -- yeah. Very small I mean could barely walk then sit down I was about it that wasn't the kind of place you can really linger and after that carried out. So now how would you say her -- there has changed just aesthetically. Since 1950. I think at the beginning of book it was a very grippy sort of workman who plays he had tailors and bar burgers and out burger joints. Nothing really fancy and started to evolve and change. Stayed pretty grubby well into the seven days. And I think that what happened was. They extended the Red Line out to L life they had to dig up the square. To do that once they did that it is that it well you know we should really clean it up a little bit so when -- when he finished that install -- all this lovely brick sidewalks. They added space for performers to perform. They changed traffic patterns there's a lot of effort to sort of smooth out the wrinkles and done and clean it up and."

" So here are locking up suit -- passing game this is certainly one of the most legendary places and Harvard Square. So here you can see some beautiful pictures. Of the club here you can see Joan Baez and this is the old space on on the street and then it moved over here and you can see. I believe that's pictures from downstairs. That's -- insular and doc Watson. Playing here and you can see there is definitely the spaces very bare bones but great music all of secure Bruce Springsteen was refused to -- That's correct frustration was refused a -- get past scene because he was gonna have his -- too -- up up up up. What represents Harvard Square in this book. In a picture of it one picture. I mean I have to say the first one of the first pictures in the because one of my favorite at this point here from 1950. And I Leavitt. Because it's so from another time and it's a beautiful photograph. And it shows Mass Avenue looking up towards Porter Square. You can see the the church on church street in the background you have here the movie theater while the time. The university theaters what it was called them. Had the big marquis an entrance on mass which had the lights all around it very very Hollywood you can even read what was playing Richard would mark halls of Montezuma. Keep the buses going down. With the wires overhead. For the trolleys which which are no longer there. Here of course all the -- cafeteria smack in the middle. With the giant letters that take up an entire row of windows and if you go. And look at this building right now which is where CBS's you can see that there are no windows here and now you know why because in the fifties there -- Cafeteria with a giant letters saying all -- is a process so I think it's neat to see. Where these things come from. From I'll via means to CBS -- guests with a shot but for gems in the middle tell me about this -- and it's at the front of the -- by John Updike. I just think he did such a beautiful wonderful job. Describing. The time in this way that I guess only he can justice and with elements and you -- sure. I think the that in and of its -- and it's. Later as I matured enough to during the Harvard lampoon and acquire Radcliffe girlfriend feat achieved I now realize against considerable odds. She and I nurtured our romance at tables and I'll be -- means that he's difference in Cronin. With always the guilty thrill that I wasn't back in my monk's cell studying and humanities. We huddled in the darkness of the single screen UT and descended into the damp chill of the Red Line is streaking cars would take -- to Boston. The commercial surround of Harvard Square the ugliest spot William dean howls called it on earth. Save me from the academic vapors as it saves the university from press yesterday. From my four years there I remain grateful that this colonial and neo colonial palace of higher learning that pitched itself and it down to earth. If not downright gravity American city. When the last thing he wrote before he died. This was one of the last things certainly one of the last things published. It's an honor you know. Times."

" No allotments new book is called Harvard Square and illustrated history since 1950. For more information go to our website radio Boston dot. -- today we have an exciting program to tell you about radio Boston will record our broadcast before a live audience at Boston's historic Daniel hall on the evening of Tuesday. November 17 at 8 o'clock. We'll be looking into a new programs seeking to reduce gang violence in our city. If you'd like to join us in the audience send us an email with the word tickets in the subject line to radio Boston -- WBUR dot work. Give us your name phone number in the number of tickets is like tickets are free with a limit of four per person we have to see you November 17. Our program is produced by -- against Syria and Jessica -- with help from our interns stealing hearts our field assisted with the Larry Tim Disco is our technical director. Senior producer of radio boxes is marketing them. Special thanks this week to Vermont public radio I'm Jane Clayson enjoy your weekend. And join us again next week for a rating of."